Different Types Of Abuse And Neglect

[hummm_mabbe]

A Psychologist i saw briefly a number of years ago suggested, without hesitation that maybe my father sexually abused me as a child, hence the lack of memories of life. At the time, it filled me with rage. Now it does make me nervous, and my first instinct is to say 'No way'. But the fact is, i do know, or at least strongly suspect that there was sexual abuse at some point of my childhood. The main problem being that i have no idea who was responsible, or exactly what was done to me. So to deny it was my father would only be due to loyalty, protectiveness of him.

I did not see him after his death. The last time i saw him was 4 days before hand. I did however, blame myself for a long time. I 'think' i have come to terms with my part in it all.

It's not just that i don't remember my father. It's that i don't remember anything. I don't remember my mother or my sister, my schooling, my teachers, my friends at school, my out of school activities, family get together etc. I only know they happened because i've been told, and because i've seen photos of a little girl who i'm told is me attending these things. I have very fleeting, very vague, dettached recollections, akin to having seen a movie a very long time ago and attempting to recall what happened in the movie, but because it's been so many years since you saw it, you don't know what happened in it, what it was about, or even who was in it. If someone tells you about certain scenes, you can 'imagine' what those scenes may look like, but there is no emotional attachment to them. Does that make sense? I even have trouble remembering last week....yet i have had no distinct dissociative episodes. That's just me, it's as if i'm now incapable of storing meaningful, emotionally enriched memories of day to day life, let alone major events. I can say in general what's been happening lately, but if you were to ask what i did last Tuesday, i couldn't tell you, and i certainly couldn't tell you what i was feeling.

In regards to the affects of both types of abuse, i can see how getting an apology from your father and his willingness to work on your relationship. My mother too has always been the victim, will never understand what she's done to me, will never take responsibility, and certainly will never apologise. As you say, she has buried her head and everything i try to tell her, however i tell her, has to impossibly get through many layers of thick wet sand. And she can't be bothered.

I'm sorry, i have hijacked your thread.

No worries wobbles

I would say file it away, and continue to work on the relationship you have with your T. As you work on present day things, and build up trust, it may be that your mind will know when its strong enough to let you remember. This can happen in therapy and often does, but it will be piecemeal.

[jades]

u know i never thought i knew this till now but i thought not just us kids bu my mom was being abused by my dad even as a small child i rmember now i never knew this till now htis explains so much tyxxxxxxxx

[hummm_mabbe]

That sums it up perfectly! Guess in a roundabout way I was wondering if it is even possible for someone who will try to care about and be supportive of a bpd. Sorry I am in a hopeless mood today and what you wrote was exactly what I am moping about! Lucky you, lol.

xxx

That is why it is my very strong belief that, unless you are very lucky, the only way to change is via an experienced, highly empathic and well-balanced therapist, with therapy based on a deep bond and real relationship. A romantic partner or friend can be there for social support, but the real work of recovery needs someone who is specially trained in the exact challenges of BPD and other trauma spectrum disorders. Trauma severs the link to humanity, through relationships, in serious ways that are extremely resistant to 'normal' interventions.

Its possible to change, Ive seen it - but for me only in therapy. People can care, but they may struggle to truly understand - and when their own self esteem and needs are involved, it all to easily turns into a quagmire of hurt, accusation, confusion and retraumatisation.

[Wobbles]

That sums it up perfectly! Guess in a roundabout way I was wondering if it is even possible for someone who will try to care about and be supportive of a bpd. Sorry I am in a hopeless mood today and what you wrote was exactly what I am moping about! Lucky you, lol.

xxx

That is why it is my very strong belief that, unless you are very lucky, the only way to change is via an experienced, highly empathic and well-balanced therapist, with therapy based on a deep bond and real relationship. A romantic partner or friend can be there for social support, but the real work of recovery needs someone who is specially trained in the exact challenges of BPD and other trauma spectrum disorders. Trauma severs the link to humanity, through relationships, in serious ways that are extremely resistant to 'normal' interventions.

Its possible to change, Ive seen it - but for me only in therapy. People can care, but they may struggle to truly understand - and when their own self esteem and needs are involved, it all to easily turns into a quagmire of hurt, accusation, confusion and retraumatisation.

More along this topic, is it possibly for a BPD sufferer, even one who is functioning at best they can due the help of very effective therapy, is it possibly for a person with a BPD dx, to truly empathise with another person?

[hummm_mabbe]

More along this topic, is it possibly for a BPD sufferer, even one who is functioning at best they can due the help of very effective therapy, is it possibly for a person with a BPD dx, to truly empathise with another person?

I think that we tend to be very accurate about WHICH emotion is being experienced, but that our perception of how MUCH they are feeling it may be amplified. Most psychotherapists would agree that BPD's tend to be super-empathic, its a very appealing quality.

EDIT: Unles we have been triggered or are detaching - then I think our empathy is sevrely disabled. If we are in a calm, happy or sad mood (what I would call a child mode) then we are empathic.

NPD tends to be the opposite of this, and lack of empathy is a defining part of the dx.

[Wobbles]

That's interesting. Mostly because i find it very difficult to empathise with anyone. On an intellectual level yes i can, i can imagine how someone is feeling, or how i might feel during such times, but feeling it is a completely different kettle of fish.

Maybe i'm more NPD....scary thought!

But i think it's mostly just down to the fact that i have never been shown empathy, rather than i'm not capable of it.

Anyway, sorry, very off topic now.

[hummm_mabbe]

That's interesting. Mostly because i find it very difficult to empathise with anyone. On an intellectual level yes i can, i can imagine how someone is feeling, or how i might feel during such times, but feeling it is a completely different kettle of fish.

Maybe i'm more NPD....scary thought!

But i think it's mostly just down to the fact that i have never been shown empathy, rather than i'm not capable of it.

Anyway, sorry, very off topic now.

If you were to look at how Schema Therapy handles emotional problems, it may be true that you have 'modes' that some more 'pure' BPD's do not have. One mode that shuts off feeling is called the Detached Protector, and when you are in this mode you feel separate, shut off, unfeeling. This tends to be a pure BPD mode, though the amount of time spent in it may vary from person to person.

However, you may also have an 'overcompensator mode'. This mode is a cover - a mask if you like, brought in to cover feelings and emotions perhaps of being on display, overwhelmed or things like shame, anxiety or sadness. You essentially try to act the opposite of what you really feel. Overcompensations may take the form of being sarcastic, intellectualism, 'false arrogance', entitlement, agression and so on. In NPD, the detached protector and overcompensator modes are almost always the most prominent ones, and there are few shifts between them. In BPD, there is the punishing voice and feeling of the punitve parent, the rage of the angry child, the "emptiness" of the detached self soother / protector and some semblance of a healthy adult voice and there are frequent shifts between them, giving the mood instability so characteristic of BPD.

I tmay be that you are yiur own complex mix of all these, which is far more likely than being a pure type. Most psychiatrists would admit that with personality disorders, there is a great deal of mixing and matching. That is why the schema mode approach is so much more flexible as it takes all these different elements into account.

So your lack of empathy may come from overcompensation, or from detachment. There are extreme and clear differences between pure NPD and BPD though. If you find that you feel superior to people, want to hurt or maipulate them from a position of wanting power over them (as opposed to feeling scared or needy) or feel that your own emotional needs are more important than others, and if you tend to have an almost immovable positive view of yourself and how others see you, then you may be on the NPD side. Additionally, it may be that you have such acute empathy for thers thqat when you see their pain, it is too much and so you pull away. This would make you empathic, but avoidant of the sensations it produces. As BPD tends to produce extreme empathic reactions, you may feel into this but use an overcompensation or detachment to cope. Do people tell you that you are unresponsive, too cold, or do they tell you the opposite, that you are too sensitive? Empathy can also be found in picking up on others anger or criticality as it is the ability to comprehend how someone else is feeling.

If you saw someone crying, or in pain, or heard them talking about losing someone or a pet, how would you react? How do you feel when you read of peoples pain on here? Do you feel you want to help, or that you want to fix them? Reactions happen quickly and though it may SEEM that you are not empathic, there may be just a glimpse of that feeling of identifying with them, shortly before some other mode comes in to blot it out.

[Rael]

please excuse me not wanting to get into the topic (awkward) but i did want to say that i am glad that the book and link you found have been helpful to you. when you say that if something happens then chances are you will go back to reacting the same way as im sure you know knowing something to be true and employing it when needed are very different. so many things that i know about and know i should do but in the moment everything just seems to get lost, old habits die hard i guess.

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

please excuse me not wanting to get into the topic (awkward) but i did want to say that i am glad that the book and link you found have been helpful to you. when you say that if something happens then chances are you will go back to reacting the same way as im sure you know knowing something to be true and employing it when needed are very different. so many things that i know about and know i should do but in the moment everything just seems to get lost, old habits die hard i guess.

xxx

Yes thats true, but as of today i feel like I have a greater understanding of why, and also more confience that i can change. The calming effect of knowing I trust my T and that shes there for me has been noticeable today, so i feel like I have renewed faith in the process.

Tis ok if you dont wanna get into the debate Miss Moofie :hug2:

[sundries]

Wobbles

I read an interesting thing

cant find it now

but it was about memories

it basically said that people remember their lives in different ways. Id never thought of it before. It gave a whole load of different ways. one was that people tend to remember major events and measure life by that, others remember particular social groups or surroundings

there were a whole loads of ways ...and i cant remember them lol

BUT

one interested me because it is how i remember things. Some people remember their lives through brief moments eg standing on a beach watching sun (not remembering when), sitting in a pushchair, being hugged ....not necessarily things you could place as 'memories' of a particular time.

I just wonder if you do have memories of your childhood, just dont encode them in the popularly publicised way.

[sundries]

was new psychological research btw

[wordsmithy]

been reading these posts on attachment, how the way youve been brought up affects what kind of person you are.

and irealised when i think about attachment i think of it terms of my mother.

but attachment, reading the david howe presentation on powerpoint

is the relationship between the child and the primary care-figure, not both parents.

my dad.

i just naturally assumed it would be my mother. but even though i dont ask, i know it would be my father, 'cause my mum's doing long, long working hours since i was born, or even before, cant remember, so my dad has to be the one bringing me up the most from birth, being the last child out of three.

in that case i might have had a different psychological development to the one i thought i had.

my father was, i say was because he has seriously mellowed out towards his kids in the the latest years, angry, a lot. just i remember the primary emotion was just anger.

my dad was volatile. he's kick off for no reason (i cant understand, even now why he'd be really pissed off) a number of times. i remember once a friend, consider that had virtually no friends of my own age, give me a souvenir from a holday, and he thought i didnt deserve it, and threw it away. yelling at me, and my sister.

that is one (the only one time i can remember in that kind of detail, memories of childhood are few, and also 'cause it 4 in the morning) that he'd be "irrationally" angry at me. but as i recall it happened a lot, as i remember him being angry primarily.

other people just thought he was a great guy. friendly generous, even quite well tempered. a great dad. smart and nice. he brought up kids who did the chores, behaved, unlike their own kids.

he was so angry with like that, i once wondered , looking at old photos, if he would have been happier, before we were born, and that our existence made him and my mother terribly unhappy.

dont get me worng, i rationally know my dad's not a bad guy, he's my dad. he brought us up. i suppose he didnt have to. consciously i know that if someone puts food in your mouth, and shelter over your head for 20 years, they must care.

but like someone said he didnt know us, and (98%) or like us.

he probably thought for most of our young lives that it wasnt necessary to know what was going on inside our head even as babies, and thought it better if we became independent asap. its sort him thinking adults are superior to children. their thoughts and opinions, my dad being the man of house, he decides, he being around the most, decides how we are disciplined, how we behave, what we eat, wear etc. he ruled. not just over us kids, but over my mum as well, 'cause she was overruled.

nowadays, i feel anxious a lot, have problems with the interpersonal (am in group therapy for people with personality-disordered problems), and one of the things is i cant deal with angry people. sometimes self-harmed if people were angry with me etc.

and i wondered why my consultant keep going back to my dad, eh? thought he was just looking for bad stuff to blame... lol

again, this stuff has been useful and really bloody good reading!

[hummm_mabbe]

Soo today i went and bought the book, and there were bits of it that almost made me cry. EVERYTHING that I have always struggled with, and blamed myself for, was covered in it, and was cited as an example of how children in those environments respond and behave. Even my most shameful, self-hate deserving acts of the past are in there, things I did right from being a child and that kept on happening all my life.

Its very calming to learn that there truly is a reason for all of this - but moreso, it helped me to understand why my mum and dad were like that. It has helped me get a lot more acceptance of things, and accordingly I am feeling sad over it, where before was anger. But I guess thats the usual path isnt it - denial, anger, acceptance, sadness?

[Roses]

what comes after sadness?

[AveMaria]

Can you buy the book in the US? If it helped you so much, sounds like it would be worth the money! Lol, seriously I am happy that you found so much helpful info in there...and like Roses said, I hope there is something wonderful after the sadness and that you reach it and can stay there. You're a wonderful guy!

xxx

[Wobbles]

That's interesting. Mostly because i find it very difficult to empathise with anyone. On an intellectual level yes i can, i can imagine how someone is feeling, or how i might feel during such times, but feeling it is a completely different kettle of fish.

Maybe i'm more NPD....scary thought!

But i think it's mostly just down to the fact that i have never been shown empathy, rather than i'm not capable of it.

Anyway, sorry, very off topic now.

If you were to look at how Schema Therapy handles emotional problems, it may be true that you have 'modes' that some more 'pure' BPD's do not have. One mode that shuts off feeling is called the Detached Protector, and when you are in this mode you feel separate, shut off, unfeeling. This tends to be a pure BPD mode, though the amount of time spent in it may vary from person to person.

However, you may also have an 'overcompensator mode'. This mode is a cover - a mask if you like, brought in to cover feelings and emotions perhaps of being on display, overwhelmed or things like shame, anxiety or sadness. You essentially try to act the opposite of what you really feel. Overcompensations may take the form of being sarcastic, intellectualism, 'false arrogance', entitlement, agression and so on. In NPD, the detached protector and overcompensator modes are almost always the most prominent ones, and there are few shifts between them. In BPD, there is the punishing voice and feeling of the punitve parent, the rage of the angry child, the "emptiness" of the detached self soother / protector and some semblance of a healthy adult voice and there are frequent shifts between them, giving the mood instability so characteristic of BPD.

I tmay be that you are yiur own complex mix of all these, which is far more likely than being a pure type. Most psychiatrists would admit that with personality disorders, there is a great deal of mixing and matching. That is why the schema mode approach is so much more flexible as it takes all these different elements into account.

So your lack of empathy may come from overcompensation, or from detachment. There are extreme and clear differences between pure NPD and BPD though. If you find that you feel superior to people, want to hurt or maipulate them from a position of wanting power over them (as opposed to feeling scared or needy) or feel that your own emotional needs are more important than others, and if you tend to have an almost immovable positive view of yourself and how others see you, then you may be on the NPD side. Additionally, it may be that you have such acute empathy for thers thqat when you see their pain, it is too much and so you pull away. This would make you empathic, but avoidant of the sensations it produces. As BPD tends to produce extreme empathic reactions, you may feel into this but use an overcompensation or detachment to cope. Do people tell you that you are unresponsive, too cold, or do they tell you the opposite, that you are too sensitive? Empathy can also be found in picking up on others anger or criticality as it is the ability to comprehend how someone else is feeling.

If you saw someone crying, or in pain, or heard them talking about losing someone or a pet, how would you react? How do you feel when you read of peoples pain on here? Do you feel you want to help, or that you want to fix them? Reactions happen quickly and though it may SEEM that you are not empathic, there may be just a glimpse of that feeling of identifying with them, shortly before some other mode comes in to blot it out.

That's some very interesting, and very fitting information hummm, thank you for that. i will see if i can find some more info on it all.

[Wobbles]

Wobbles

I read an interesting thing

cant find it now

but it was about memories

it basically said that people remember their lives in different ways. Id never thought of it before. It gave a whole load of different ways. one was that people tend to remember major events and measure life by that, others remember particular social groups or surroundings

there were a whole loads of ways ...and i cant remember them lol

BUT

one interested me because it is how i remember things. Some people remember their lives through brief moments eg standing on a beach watching sun (not remembering when), sitting in a pushchair, being hugged ....not necessarily things you could place as 'memories' of a particular time.

I just wonder if you do have memories of your childhood, just dont encode them in the popularly publicised way.

I can see what they're trying to say. I have spent a long time thinking about it, and i can count the number of memories i have on one hand. I literally have no other memories of my childhood. Not until i was around 14 do more start coming into my recollection, and between 14 and 29, it's major events mostly.

[Wobbles]

Soo today i went and bought the book, and there were bits of it that almost made me cry. EVERYTHING that I have always struggled with, and blamed myself for, was covered in it, and was cited as an example of how children in those environments respond and behave. Even my most shameful, self-hate deserving acts of the past are in there, things I did right from being a child and that kept on happening all my life.

Its very calming to learn that there truly is a reason for all of this - but moreso, it helped me to understand why my mum and dad were like that. It has helped me get a lot more acceptance of things, and accordingly I am feeling sad over it, where before was anger. But I guess thats the usual path isnt it - denial, anger, acceptance, sadness?

It gave you an explanation for why your parents were the way they were with you? Does that help you understand your mother better?

[hummm_mabbe]

Soo today i went and bought the book, and there were bits of it that almost made me cry. EVERYTHING that I have always struggled with, and blamed myself for, was covered in it, and was cited as an example of how children in those environments respond and behave. Even my most shameful, self-hate deserving acts of the past are in there, things I did right from being a child and that kept on happening all my life.

Its very calming to learn that there truly is a reason for all of this - but moreso, it helped me to understand why my mum and dad were like that. It has helped me get a lot more acceptance of things, and accordingly I am feeling sad over it, where before was anger. But I guess thats the usual path isnt it - denial, anger, acceptance, sadness?

It gave you an explanation for why your parents were the way they were with you? Does that help you understand your mother better?

It helps me understand EVERYTHING better :)

[Wobbles]

Hhmmm i wonder if i could get it second hand, will have a look on amazon.

[hummm_mabbe]

what comes after sadness?

Technically, 'integration', which is where you have acknowledged and grived for the loss, and now are able to move on and find new ways to fill the gap.

As an aside, depression can cause people to cry all the time, but this is not the same thing as a healthy sadness - being stuck in a permanent state of grief that does not respond to crying is a trauma state where the process of acceptance has not occured. This is especially relevant where incidents and traumas have been denied, invalidated, dissociated or otherwise avoided.

[hummm_mabbe]

Can you buy the book in the US? If it helped you so much, sounds like it would be worth the money! Lol, seriously I am happy that you found so much helpful info in there...and like Roses said, I hope there is something wonderful after the sadness and that you reach it and can stay there. You're a wonderful guy!

xxx

Thank you Ave, that is very kind of you

I guess its avaliable over there, mabbe check out amazon?

[Wobbles]

For anyone interested, Amazon has new and second hand copies from £17.35

[hummm_mabbe]

Just want to say

Reading this book has come on the back of the changes in therapy too, so I wouldnt want to give people the impression that the book is the sole cause of me feeling this way. It feels like it has come along and filled a huge piece of the puzzle that I have been trying to complete for a long time, so for others that are starting out, or maybe are at a different stage, it may not be quite as world changing as Ive made it seem ...

All the same, it does provide a huge wealth of info that I havent seen before.

[profound1]

...and like Roses said, I hope there is something wonderful after the sadness and that you reach it and can stay there. You're a wonderful guy!

xxx

I agree with that and hope that everlasting happiness comes after sadness.

profound1.