For Those With An Actual Bpd Dx

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi

I was doing some reading about BPD and found out that there are different forms of it, apparently 4 different broad types. It didnt make this bit clear though and I wanted to get some answers.

Im sorry if I seem like Im being exclusive, thats not my intention ... I wanted to know, for those that actually have an 'official' BPD dx from a psychiatrist, do you ever use overcompensating as a way of coping?

Overcompensating is trying to behave as if the oppsoite of your feelings is true, though underneath the sense of fear and anxiety is not far away. It is similar to having a narcissistic trait, although the sense of real superiority that comes with NPD is absent. Overcompensations can look like this:

1) Acting in grandiose or haughty ways, as though you are very important or superior (whilst feeling very much that you are not)

2) Trying to act as though you are not afraid of anything, being 'counterphobic' and deliberately doing stuff that scares you.

3) Trying to be centre of attention

4) Feeling you shouldnt have to do certain tasks or that you should not have the same expectations placed on you as others

5) Not letting anyone get close to you, acting as though you do not need anyone else

6) Suppressing or denying emotions such as anxiety that you view as weak - focusing on only showing 'strong' behaviours. Being too self controlled.

7) Acting in a controlling or dominant way (again with a feeling of underlying fear)

8) Being extremely competitive and that you cannot be beaten (again out of fear)

9) Being rebellious (out of a feeling of being controlled or dominated)

10) Intellectualising or rationalising emotions or actions to the exclusion of healthy expression

Again the difference between overcompensation and narcissism in the context I am asking (though not necessarily in the literature) is that the behaviours are done out of desperation / not having any other choice in overcompensation, and feeling entitled and genuinely superior in narcissism.

[arwentheelfqueen]

I'm not sure if this is compatible to what you are saying is overcompensating, but I push myself to do things that are terrifying to most people but even worse for someone with psych disorders. For example, in the last few months I forced myself to play in three musical recitals when I experience severe performance anxiety and suffer greatly preceding these experiences. I am determined _not_ to let myself off the hook just because I have mental illness. I used to not accept accommodations at school either.

Do you think this is overcompensating? What do you think?

arwen

[hummm_mabbe]

I'm not sure if this is compatible to what you are saying is overcompensating, but I push myself to do things that are terrifying to most people but even worse for someone with psych disorders. For example, in the last few months I forced myself to play in three musical recitals when I experience severe performance anxiety and suffer greatly preceding these experiences. I am determined _not_ to let myself off the hook just because I have mental illness. I used to not accept accommodations at school either.

Do you think this is overcompensating? What do you think?

arwen

Hi Arwen

For me that ones a grey area. I have always been the same - public speaking, mountain climbing, skydiving etc. I think the key is whether it actually takes away the anxiety - if you just keep making yourself do that stuff but still basically feel afraid underneath, then its like overcompensation.

CBT makes you face your fears, but it does it in a structured way and points you towards challenging beliefs and not just doing it for the sake of doing it, and I guess this is what has always confused me. For me I have done all this counterphobic stuff but it ended up getting me into more trouble - that is the hallmark of an overcompensation, it seems adaptive but actually leads to feeling worse.

Like I said its a bit of a grey area for me :(

[Wobbles]

Hi Ross,

Overcompensation is a big issue for me. On your list, i relate very strongly to most of them. Being the centre of attention isn't something i like at all, so i can't relate to that one, but the others scream at me.

If i feel anxious, hurt, sad etc i overcompensate by intellectualising my emotions, invalidating them, and then acting in the extreme opposite way.

1) Acting in grandiose or haughty ways, as though you are very important or superior (whilst feeling very much that you are not)

This explains why if i feel i'm being treated badly by someone in public, such as a shop assistant, or customer service people on the phone or similar, i mak a big deal of it, get on my high horse, and lash out at them. Kind of a 'How dare you, i'll make you pay for that' thing, but i know deep down that i'm worth shit.

2) Trying to act as though you are not afraid of anything, being 'counterphobic' and deliberately doing stuff that scares you.

There have only ever been a handful of people who have been able to see through me and realise that my tough exterior and behaviour is an act. The stuff that deliberately scares me is more in my head, i force myself to think about scarey or painful things, or i'm scared of heights so i'll stand on the very edge of a balcony or cliff.

3) Trying to be centre of attention - not relevant

4) Feeling you shouldnt have to do certain tasks or that you should not have the same expectations placed on you as others Sort of feel as though, i'm different somehow, i shouldn't be expected to be as competent or as good as normal people, i'm ill so i should be th exception, or i'm smarter etc.

5) Not letting anyone get close to you, acting as though you do not need anyone else My first reaction if someone does something, or i perceive someone has done something to wrong me, 'I don't need you anyway'. I don't let people get close to me, i push them away in fact, even though i'm desperately lonely, i fear being needy or being perceived as needy so i go in completely the opposite direction.

6) Suppressing or denying emotions such as anxiety that you view as weak - focusing on only showing 'strong' behaviours. Being too self controlled. A HUGE one for me!!

7) Acting in a controlling or dominant way (again with a feeling of underlying fear) Constant fear of losing control, or feeling too much, so i try to dominate and control everything and everyone around me.

8) Being extremely competitive and that you cannot be beaten (again out of fear) And the tantrum i have going on inside me when i AM beaten!!

9) Being rebellious (out of a feeling of being controlled or dominated) I was a rebellious child, i hate being controlled or dominated, and still am to this day. If i feel like i'm being told what to do, i rebel. I had many many arguements with teachers at school and was often told i had a bad attitude. I always ask why, when i find out the rules, that i don't like and feel controlled by. But why does that rule exist? Why should i abide by it?

10) Intellectualising or rationalising emotions or actions to the exclusion of healthy expression Over analysis of emotions, to give reasons to them, de-rationalise them, invalidate them, belittle myself for having them etc.

Sorry if that was a bit too wobbly, but as i said overcompensating is a big issue for me. If i'm feeling inferior, i overcompensate by acting entitled and superior. And the list goes on.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Wobbles

Wow, thank you for such a detailed reply! It really does sound like you and I are very alike. The reason I made the thread is because in terms of 'pure' BPD (which is kind of an abstract concept cuz it always comes with other things) there is not meant to be an overcompensator mode, and that is why I wanted to hear from people with BPD dx's.

I guess this goes to prove what people have known for a long time - that every BPD is different?

Have you, like me, ever been accused of being arrogant or stuck up because people only see the front? It is like the thing I am most worried about - its the reason I find it so hard to ask for what I want, or stand up for myself because as soon as I do, my punishing mode tells me I was being stuck up and arrogant. But if I say nothing, I get punished for being too weak ... I wish people would see through me more, but in a nice way, like they say "hey its ok, you can trust me, you can relax".

There's like a separateness, like I am meant to be different, or dont have the same human needs as others or something too (which I know is crap but my guts still feel it)

With your therapist, do you by any chance feel like you have to control the direction of therapy and always be talking, but secretly wish you could just let go and feel happy and relaxed, like they are now looking after you? Did you already answer that question in my other thread mabbe???

<< Bad memory :(

[Wobbles]

Hi Wobbles

Wow, thank you for such a detailed reply! It really does sound like you and I are very alike. The reason I made the thread is because in terms of 'pure' BPD (which is kind of an abstract concept cuz it always comes with other things) there is not meant to be an overcompensator mode, and that is why I wanted to hear from people with BPD dx's.

I guess this goes to prove what people have known for a long time - that every BPD is different?

Have you, like me, ever been accused of being arrogant or stuck up because people only see the front? It is like the thing I am most worried about - its the reason I find it so hard to ask for what I want, or stand up for myself because as soon as I do, my punishing mode tells me I was being stuck up and arrogant. But if I say nothing, I get punished for being too weak ... I wish people would see through me more, but in a nice way, like they say "hey its ok, you can trust me, you can relax".

With your therapist, do you by any chance feel like you have to control the direction of therapy and always be talking, but secretly wish you could just let go and feel happy and relaxed, like they are now looking after you? Did you already answer that question in my other thread mabbe???

<< Bad memory

Ross, i've known for quite awhile that we're quite alike, why do you think i badger you with PM's and always look for your posts, and always want to respond to them.....

Anyway, in answer to your questions.

I have indeed been accused on many occasions of being arrogant, stuck up, aloof etc. Mostly because of my intelligence. It is one aspect of myself i'm happy with, and so because i'm so unhappy with most other aspects of my life, i place all importance on my intelligence, and tend to overcompensate with it as a result of being so unhappy with practically everything else about myself.

I too wish people could see through me more often, and just say, 'it's ok, you don't have to pretend anymore, i see you, and like you anyway'. The facade, the act, the pretense, which is all for self preservation in every aspect, protecting myself from others as well as myself, is what gives people the impression that i'm arrogant or stuck up, or too controlled and on edge.

But if you say nothing to protect yourself, or stand up for yourself, you're deemed as weak, a push over, pathetic, submissive and lacking. For fear that you'll overcompensate and go too far in the opposite direction, and literally over react, which is me to a t. The fear of how people see me, whether it be weak or arrogant, is what fuels my overcompensation. In addition, i've been called a bully in the past, because of this overcompensation. In fact it was you in my thread about being called a bully, that opened my mind to the concept of overcompensation.

I did answer your other thread about this but i didn't go into detail.

I control my therapy sessions to the point where i am utterly exhausted at the end of it. I'm holding so tightly onto myself, worried about losing control, worried about what he'll think of me, worried about what i might say, what direction i might go in and what the consequences of that 'might' be. I would love to just 'let go' and relax and just say whatever comes to me, what ever flows off my tongue without having to think about and analyse it first. Every word is measured, and i've been caught out a few times, where i've momentarily lost control, said something rather profound without being conscious of my emotions attached to it, which has resulted in me crying. Something that has taken me a long time to allow myself to do in front of my T. He has told me on many occasions now to just say whatever comes to me, instead of thinking so much about what i'm saying and what i'm going to say. I even plan what i'm going to talk about before getting there, have the whole conversation played out in my head and if i allow it to go in a different direction, i'm then frustrated with myself for not keeping control. Arrgghh!! Just let go damnit!!

I feel wrapped up so tightly, wound up, so measured and in control. And then the anger comes and i'm completely the opposite, out of control and bursting because i've been so wound up. It causes physical symptoms, such as nausea and anxiety, never relaxed.

[hummm_mabbe]

How are you with being teased? Does it seem like a bit of fun, or does it feel like they are trying to subtly dominate or humiliate you?

Do you ever feel people are trying to get one over on you?

My ongoing relationship process, especially at work, is that it starts ok. I guess I overcomepnsate a bit to try to be liked, but all the time feel anxious. I know Im kinna being fake, but I cant help it ... then someone teases. Its like the world closes in, I get tunnel vision, I feel attacked but frozen .. and overcompensator comes out. I MUST say something back, and it must be perfectly funny, but not too angry. That same blend of assertive but not aggressive or I get internally punished

Of course I react badly, and then panic inside. Gradually the teasing increases and I make it worse because of how badly I react, but I guess because most of my emotions are so undrer wraps, and because I get this sheen of arrogance or haughtiness, people think I deserve it or can take it. Eventually this leads to chronic paranoia and problems feeling people are out to get me, ruin me. It can lead to angry nutter outbursts

My standard work pattern is that the longest this can be dragged out is about a year before it falls to bits. This is because I start to feel so rebellious about working, that "why should I" and different rules thing, but mainly I feel so much like nothing goes my way and Im dealing with so much crap that I just cannot work and my motivatin drops off no matter how hard I try etc ... and I end up feeling a failure as well.

Hmm looks like I needed to get this out of my system ...

[Wobbles]

How are you with being teased? Does it seem like a bit of fun, or does it feel like they are trying to subtly dominate or humiliate you?

Do you ever feel people are trying to get one over on you?

My ongoing relationship process, especially at work, is that it starts ok. I guess I overcomepnsate a bit to try to be liked, but all the time feel anxious. I know Im kinna being fake, but I cant help it ... then someone teases. Its like the world closes in, I get tunnel vision, I feel attacked but frozen .. and overcompensator comes out. I MUST say something back, and it must be perfectly funny, but not too angry. That same blend of assertive but not aggressive or I get internally punished

Of course I react badly, and then panic inside. Gradually the teasing increases and I make it worse because of how badly I react, but I guess because most of my emotions are so undrer wraps, and because I get this sheen of arrogance or haughtiness, people think I deserve it or can take it. Eventually this leads to chronic paranoia and problems feeling people are out to get me, ruin me. It can lead to angry nutter outbursts

My standard work pattern is that the longest this can be dragged out is about a year before it falls to bits. This is because I start to feel so rebellious about working, that "why should I" and different rules thing, but mainly I feel so much like nothing goes my way and Im dealing with so much crap that I just cannot work and my motivatin drops off no matter how hard I try etc ... and I end up feeling a failure as well.

Hmm looks like I needed to get this out of my system ...

In regards to the teasing, i'm a habitual piss taker, which is in most parts down to overcompensating. I use sarcasm, but the subtle, intellectual type where i'm actually being really nasty and cutting, but they don't realise it, or at least that's what my rationalisation is. I too must to be perfectly funny, i MUST have a comeback, and that desperation often leads me to saying innappropriately hurtful things, despite how true they might be, or how funny i was attempting to be, which of course starts the downspiral of more teasing, ill feeling between people, side taking, more sarcasm, and general dislike for me for being too intense, sensitive, in your face, uppity, aggressive, arrogant, and stuck up.

Normally, if i perceive i'm being teased, i go one of two ways. I either laugh at it, and then stew about it for weeks afterwards and hold grudges, and then the paranoia kicks in. 'Well what if they weren't joking, what did they really mean by it, what if everyone thinks that, if they didn't mean it, they wouldn't have thought to say it, everyone must be thinking the same thing, they're all laughing at me.' So being teased a little, is a subtle way of humiliating me, proving to their friends what they've been talking about behind my back, trying to prove they're cleverer than me, and trying to look better than me. Thinking i'm too stupid to see their real motives.

And then there's the internal punishment for being so stupid, and believing that some people actually liked me when all along they were laughing at me. How foolish was i to trust that i was likeable, 'it's your own fault you feel this way, if you weren't so stupid, this wouldn't have happened'. And then i withdraw from everyone and everything, feel hurt, overly angry with the people involved, which is at a completely innappropriate level, and give up on trying to socialise for a long time.

Or i go the other way and do what i described in the first paragraph. Lash out with sarcasm that is more often than not (I'm told) very cutting and hurtful, and my desperate attempt to be funny, as well feeling as though i MUST defend my self and WIN, means i end up alienating myself. Which then leads to the same conclusion as above, the self punishment for being so stupid, over reacting, justifying, belittling, chastising, and the withdrawal from society.

People getting one over on me, all the time. I feel i have to have my witts about me constantly, as one slip, one momentary lapse in concentration means that someone WILL, not might, but WILL get one over on me, and i will be left feeling foolish, but also looking foolish, humiliated, embarrassed, and hurt. Constant vigilance. I must be brighter than everyone so that i can see their true motives, i must analyse everything that everyone says and does in case i miss something. I must pay attention. Even though i might not do anything about it at the time, if i do feel they've gotten one over on me, i will not forget it. I will stew about it, fight with them in my head, i will WIN, and they will know that i've won, even though they've not actually participated in what's gone on in my head. I must be constantly aware of what my husband is doing, because if i stop worrying, he might cheat on me, and then i'll look and feel foolish. Instead of trusting him. Always wary of friends taking advantage of me, and testing them, so that i'm prepare for the worst and i'll end up winning, which more often than not leads me over reacting, over compensating and looking exactly how i didn't want, foolish and arrogant, because i DESERVE so much better, and i don't need them anyway.

Your reactions are very much the old belief that giving a bully what he wants will make him continue to do it. If you're getting teased and you react, the bully will continue, and his mates will join in. S if you say nothing and sit like a cowardly dog that's been kicked too many times, you're weak and pathetic. If you react in a way that coincides with what's actually in your head, you're seen as aggressive, arrogant and stuck up, too sensitive, and a cry baby nancy boy. Either way, we don't escape our internalisation of the events and interactions, and the bully can't say anything half as bad as what our internal critical parent who is the authoritarean, our mothers, are saying to and about us.

Oh for some balance!

[hummm_mabbe]

Hullo Wobbles

This for me is I think my greatest difficulty - its right up there at the top. All the frsutrations you have described, its like I could have written them myself about me I know that burning horrible sensation that must be coarsing through your stomach all the time, it sucks to deepest hell.

Yet it seems so few people actually suffer from this, even folks with BPD. I have tried asking about it here before, and the thing that has just struck me is that the ONE person who identified with me also had a high value placed on intelligence when they were little, and is very intelligent now (I wont say who that was cuz it might embarrass her).

Were you ever told you were a 'gifted' child when you were little at all? Did your family make a huge deal about your future successes and how well you performed at school? Did you sort of grow up feeling that you were "special but not special", like somehow your intelligence was a curse and something to be valued at the same time? I genuinely think that this little element of the past might add a unique angle to BPD, some how it adds this sort of pseudo-narcissistic element, but with none of the attendant emotional insulation that true narcissism brings.

Somehow for a time, there was this little thing that made is feel special, whilst in the rest of our lives we felt defective, controlled and powerless. In one small way we could be admired or approved of for our achievements, but this actually drove a wedge between us and the rest of the world. We felt different, unconnected anyway - and now we had this thing about being special because of our intellect. Whilst others would see that as a good thing, somehow its just another way of feeling separate, unconnected - like a freak. But with nothing else for our self esteem to hold onto, we cling to it and protect it with anger. When its attacked - when we are teased, "challenged on the intellectual battlefield", its aiming at the ONE THING that makes us feel like we have some value. And that is why it means so much - that is why it has the power to devastate. SURELY with the power of our intellect, we can win such a 'silly little fight'? But we cant - because it has so much power over us.

Our disconnection from others, and the anxiety of the moment, makes it hard to understand the subtleties of humour. Our natural reaction - that others are not to be trusted - makes us tend to err on the side of attack. Our quick indentification with feeling a victim, plus our deep fear of ever showing any emotion, effectively cripples us. And to the rest of the world, its the funniest thing - until we freak out on them.

I wish I had some ideas on what to do ... I will think about this some more.

[Wobbles]

I'm about to chuck a spanner in your works Ross. I grew up having no importance being placed on intellect or achievement. My parents were not particularly bright people, in fact my mother is thick as pig shit. As is my sister. I was never encouraged to do well, never helped with homework and certainly NEVER praised in the least little way for achieving intellectually. I knew i was different to my family fairly early on. One thing i had over all of them, and still do is my intelligence. And i cling to it desperately. It's the only thing i have, i feel. The only thing about me that is worth anything and gives me any sort of comfort. But i fear it gives me an appearance of arrogance that i don't want.

I did not excel at school, i didn't even try. I was bored and frustrated, and preferred to argue with the teachers because it was more stimulating. And at lunch time i played sport, i had punch ups with boys who gave me shit. After school i spent time with friends, or in my bedroom listening to music or watching tv, anything to be away from my family. I didn't pay attention at school, and i don't remember anything i learned.

So no i was never called gifted, in fact i was treated as the opposite. Anything i did well, i was told i could've done better, and anything i did badly was either chastised or ignored. Negative reactions whatever the achievement, so i stopped bothering, stopped trying. My family have never recognised my intellect, or if they have, they've used it against me, and seen it as a negative thing. I refuse to let them pull me down in that respect. And i probably place far too much importance on it as a result. And overcompensate with it. If i meet someone who is smarter than me, i immediately take a disliking to them and find irrelevant faults with them to justify the feelings of inadequacy and inferiority. I feel intimidated, and feel like the little child that is told again that i'm no good, useless, worthless.

SO yes there was an element of my intellect being seen and treated like it's a curse, i don't fit in, in my family, i'm the odd, black, rebellious sheep and instead of recognising and valuing it, they think i think myself as better than them because of it. I do play down my intelligence and often surprise people when i come out with some fact, or quiz answer that they wouldn't have a clue about themselves, and then they find out that i actually know quite a lot, and so it's another excuse to take the piss out of me. So as far as family are concerned, i'm better off keeping my intellect to myself and only sharing with a select few, who if they do recognise it, make me feel unworthy, uncomfortable with compliments and paranoid that i'm appearing arrogant.

I have read your previous posts on being teased but didn't feel able to comment on them in the past.

So in a way, the one thing i've always liked about myself, and valued the most, has been played down, ridiculed, teased about, so i'm fairly defensive about it.

Sorry i'm starting to waffle now, it's past midnight, i think i'm about to turn into a pumpkin.

[hummm_mabbe]

So now Im curious - what was it that made you come to value your intelligence? It sounds from what you are saying that the message you got was that you could not achieve, almost as if the message was "you are not intelligent", yet somehow you grew up knowing that you were and valuing it. Certainly the end-point is the same one I got to, and yes whilst I was told I was intelligent and would do well, it was also something that I felt was resented by my family. My achievement was more expected of me and if I didn not perform at straight A level, I had failed. It was sort of "youre intelligent, you will do well" and there was not a great deal of positive reward - it was just "this is what you should be and do". I ended up in the same place - intelligence as double edged sword. I felt it acted as a wedge between me and others but I could at least get grades and do what was expected of me.

I dont know. I am going to have to really have a thinkie about all this, it really feels like its a big part of things. I guess everyone has a unique way that it panned out for them, and the way each of us uniquely got there will perhaps reflect the unique way we must go to get better?

Tis a bit late, you are right. Snoozey time!

Ross

[hummm_mabbe]

Ok well the ol brainie part has given me insomnia, and for once Im glad it did because I think I have come to some sort of answer, for me at least.

I know that I felt defective, unlovable. I know that I felt I had little value or worth. But I was always able to just pick things up very quickly - either with academia or later with music and art. I enjoyed this sense of having something special inside - like in innate talent. I felt there was now this one thing that somehow elevated me out of having to feel despicable, and so I latched onto it. Feeling special because of my innate talent was what allowed me to forget that all the other emotional things I needed were absent, and whilst indulging this feeling of specialness I could forget what was really inside.

But it meant I needed to be seen as this special person. If others teased me, or criticsed, or behaved in a way that showed they did not buy into my specialness, it wasnt just a small knock - it was only a short step to being back in that horrible place I wanted so much to avoid. So I started to act in a slightly entitled way: "You must see how special I am, you must see my talents. How dare you put me down like that, I'll show you".

Mistakes in myself became banned, but most of all I was ashamed of my tendency to act in this outwardly spoiled way. But I was just a child - I was just acting in a way that I had found that made me feel better. But my family decided to use it as another bat to hit me with. "Arrogant, conceited, stuck up, bighead". Those were the new insults - and so I began to deny that this was a part of me. Like anything that is shamed, it simply goes underground where it takes on a new power and leaks out in ways the sufferer does not notice. I vacillated between trying to act 'good', compliant, meek and hide any hint of arrogance, and then I would swing into a display of it when I finally could not cope anymore. Because of the overwhelming emotions that came along with it, I was blind to how others saw me. Perfectionism was order of the day, as well as denial. The one thing I could not let happen was to be seen to be "less than", but I denied it even to myself. I was either the best - special, talented; Or I was nothing, worthless. It meant that any criticism no matter how small had to be prevented, fought back against.

The problem is that everyone has flaws. Flaws are what makes us human, but when we talk of our flaws we talk of things that are acceptable. "Oh I am too ugly; I am too fat". At some level these things gain sympathy to admit. But to admit that sometimes I am arrogant? Sometimes I am entitled and demanding? That is much much harder. 2 years ago I realised I had this narcissistic side. At the time I seemed to have two choices - one, to deny it and rationalise it away, prove I was not like that. Or two - to accept it and the accompanying loss of self esteem and feelings of shame. Both of these pushed me right back down the same path.

So what I have just realised is this: Acceptance is the step needed before we can truly change, but it is the most shameful and ugly parts of ourselves that are hardest to accept. Arrogance is a flaw, not a crime. Conceit is a flaw. Wanting to be centre of attention is a flaw. Being defensive is a flaw. I am a human being, and these are the flaws that MAKE ME HUMAN. I have spent my life either denying them or feeling guilty over them - and instead I can choose to say ok these are part of me. These are going to cause me to make mistakes. But through mistakes we grow. If you accept a problem you diminish it - if you deny it you give it fuel. If my flaws hurt others, they are free to tell me. Those who are so inclined may choose to scream and shout and punish - but most people are not so punitive. Most people opt for a lower key way of trying to say "hang on, thats a bit off". They tease.

When people tease, they are inviting me to look at my humanity, at my flaws. If I accept my flaws, then the fear of being 'not special' no longer holds its sting. I can see that a tease is an attempt to have fun, but also to point out a flaw. It is a way of calling attention to it, and if I accept that I have the flaw, but that this does not mean I am evil, bad or worthless, then the tease can be seen as healthy, as an attempt to improve the relationship. When people tease me for such a flaw, I can say to myself "ok yeah sometimes I do come off a bit arrogant, I guess Im doing it a bit now huh?". It lets me acknowledge the flaw whilst laughing at it, and it defuses any tension that the presence of my flaw may have created. Its a safety valve. Because I am no longer afraid of my flaws being exposed, I no longer have to act meek and compliant to cover it. I can just be ME, warts and all.

But as long as I feel that need to be seen as special, as long as I deny that I am human and have flaws, I cannot change. As long as I live in shame and self punishment, I am doomed to live out the same things again and again. If I bring the flaw out in the open and accept it, then its power becomes less. It means I have to accept for a time that I may act in arrogant ways, I may sometimes seem stuck up or know-it-all. I may from time to time upset people, and they may tease me or criticise me because they do not desrve to feel bad either. But at this point instead of counter-attacking and shoring up my denial, I can say to myself "oopsie there I go again" and smile to myself because its a part of me I accept. Because I accept it - it no longer controls me.

I can accept my flaws without a loss of self esteem. I can recognise it is part of my humanity. It is people that accept their flaws and know what it is to be human who are able to be close to others, because their shame and denial no longer keeps them separate.

[Lya]

heyheyy. im new to this site and newly diagnosed with BPD. i always assumed my bulimia and impulsive behavior was a coping mechanism for a basic feeling of anxiety that was a result of a desire to be perfect- perfectly thin. initially i resisted my diagnosis. i assumed my therapist must be stupid, inexperienced and confused. Basically not capable of comprehending what i was communicating- i too have ALWAYS placed a high value on my intelligence. i was raised to view intellect as a competitive sport, and education as the only valuable religion...i assumed my therapist was a confused twat.

. . .

then i started to do my own research, as i learned about the symptoms of BPD i was reduced to uncontrollable tears. literally weeping for hours. everything i read was like a window into my carefuly contrived, yet broken soul. until last week i always assumed my obbsesive analysise of conversations with collegeus, freiends, lovers, family was normal... that it was normal to have a self hating inner dialogue, replaying every past conversation- could i have been more charming or witty. were my responses the best that they could have been. i too can relate to the aspets of narcissism present within BPD.

i was always told i was highly inteelligent. i was " beautiful", "special", "different"... I HAD SO MUCH POTENTIAL. i was a rebel, who would addend as few classes as possible, achieve 90-100% on enough assignments to pass, and then check outta my classes...i self sbatoged my school career, but not without first demontrating that was smarter then the average bear.

i feel broken inside. extremely lonely. i act hatefully towards those who know me best. those who have seen my weaknesses. i hate them for seeing beyond my contrived exterior, for knowing that im deeply fucked up.

i constantly intelectualize my emotions. i deplore emotional demonstrations in others. i hate neediness in anyone and everyone, but especially my own. im secretly needy as all hell.

i too overcommensate. im a sarcastic bitch. i demonstrate to others that i'm someone to be envied, someone to look up to. i keep most everyone at a distance so they can understand me as i want them too. when a someone n my life is close enough to view the cracks in my personality, the holes in my fantasies about myself i push them away, or treat them terribly. i bully my mother, sister, and best friends.

im impulsive and compulsive. i self harm: antisocial, reformed kleptomaniac, numerable suicide attempts, angry fits, and a raging eating disorder... yet most people who know me would say i was "normal" or better.

at times im extremely, overly nice to everyone. i get off on serving others needs. i only respect the eeds of those who can dominate me..is this a aspect of BPD??

.

i secretly sabotage myself constantly. i self-harm. my bulimia is ruining my life. im an isolated mess of PBD. im getting help, but i see no end in sight.

i can relate to your previous posts.

my mental functions are so deeply established in a fucked up pattern. i feel i would be better off dead. death seems like a light in this darkness.

SORRY FOR THIS RAMBLE..PLEASE RESPOND

[Lya]

to hummm-mabee

Your philosophy is brilliant. it is inspiring. i hope one day to attain a level of enlightenment which allows me to actualize, in myself, what you have described above. i feel it is SO FAR FROM WHERE I STAND. im a 22yr woman who is not okkkaay. i have little hope, but your words allow a sliver to exist. thank you.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Lya

I dont know exactly what to say, except that you and I sound very similar

It seems odd to say it, but meeting others that feel the same way is a comforting thing. I mean, I dont like the fact that other people are hurting, but it lets me know that this way of being and feeling is not something that only I experience. Ive always secretly suspected that only I have this slightly narcissistic edge to my illness, and have secretly punished and brutalised myself for having it. I obsess about keeping it under wraps and that just gives it fuel - yet when I let myself just be, very little of that side of me tends to come out anyway. The more I try to suppress it and worry about it, the more it comes out - because it was only developed as a way to cope with horrible feelings. The more I punish myself, the worse I feel, the more likely I am to actually behave that way without knowing.

Im glad that you have started on some therapy. It sounds like you are feeling very overhwlmed and hopeless right now, and if this has been going on for 22 years then its understandable that you would feel this way. It really is possible to change and I have experienced some amazing shifts in therapy both in the distant and recent past. I recognise now that personality disorders are very complex things, and healing from them takes much longer than 'normal' disorders like depression or anxiety alone. I have been in therapy many times, and felt like each time another layer peels away.

Anticipate that it will take time. Anticipate that you may go through a number of therapies and therapists - this is the norm for personality disorders, because the illness itself provdes special challenges to the therapy relationship. If you can focus equally on how your built-in reactions, assumptions and feelings come up in therapy, then you are much better equipped to make progress. There will be probloems, there will be arguments. There will be times when you feel s/he doesnt listen or understand you. You will be triggered - you will feel the same emotions that you feel in everyday life. But this is the point - each time those feelings comes up gives you a chance to deal with them in a new way. A caring, empathic therapist will give you the space to be that person, and instead of reacting defensively or accusingly, ask you whats going on for you at that moment. This new honesty and openness will translate into trust. Some therapists will 'click' with you better than others. Some will seem completely wrong, some completely right. Do not despair if things do not seem to go perfectly. Personality disorders, especially BPD, are recognised as being the most challenging disorders to treat in psychotherapy. That is why new ways and means of helping people with BPD are springing up all the time. Try to see recovery as a path or journey - if you feel stuck, then it is just an alleyway with a dead end you have gone down for a moment. All you have to do is turn around and get back to the main road - you dont have to get off it altogether.

Nice to have you here

Ross

[Wobbles]

Ok well the ol brainie part has given me insomnia, and for once Im glad it did because I think I have come to some sort of answer, for me at least.

I know that I felt defective, unlovable. I know that I felt I had little value or worth. But I was always able to just pick things up very quickly - either with academia or later with music and art. I enjoyed this sense of having something special inside - like in innate talent. I felt there was now this one thing that somehow elevated me out of having to feel despicable, and so I latched onto it. Feeling special because of my innate talent was what allowed me to forget that all the other emotional things I needed were absent, and whilst indulging this feeling of specialness I could forget what was really inside.

But it meant I needed to be seen as this special person. If others teased me, or criticsed, or behaved in a way that showed they did not buy into my specialness, it wasnt just a small knock - it was only a short step to being back in that horrible place I wanted so much to avoid. So I started to act in a slightly entitled way: "You must see how special I am, you must see my talents. How dare you put me down like that, I'll show you".

Mistakes in myself became banned, but most of all I was ashamed of my tendency to act in this outwardly spoiled way. But I was just a child - I was just acting in a way that I had found that made me feel better. But my family decided to use it as another bat to hit me with. "Arrogant, conceited, stuck up, bighead". Those were the new insults - and so I began to deny that this was a part of me. Like anything that is shamed, it simply goes underground where it takes on a new power and leaks out in ways the sufferer does not notice. I vacillated between trying to act 'good', compliant, meek and hide any hint of arrogance, and then I would swing into a display of it when I finally could not cope anymore. Because of the overwhelming emotions that came along with it, I was blind to how others saw me. Perfectionism was order of the day, as well as denial. The one thing I could not let happen was to be seen to be "less than", but I denied it even to myself. I was either the best - special, talented; Or I was nothing, worthless. It meant that any criticism no matter how small had to be prevented, fought back against.

The problem is that everyone has flaws. Flaws are what makes us human, but when we talk of our flaws we talk of things that are acceptable. "Oh I am too ugly; I am too fat". At some level these things gain sympathy to admit. But to admit that sometimes I am arrogant? Sometimes I am entitled and demanding? That is much much harder. 2 years ago I realised I had this narcissistic side. At the time I seemed to have two choices - one, to deny it and rationalise it away, prove I was not like that. Or two - to accept it and the accompanying loss of self esteem and feelings of shame. Both of these pushed me right back down the same path.

So what I have just realised is this: Acceptance is the step needed before we can truly change, but it is the most shameful and ugly parts of ourselves that are hardest to accept. Arrogance is a flaw, not a crime. Conceit is a flaw. Wanting to be centre of attention is a flaw. Being defensive is a flaw. I am a human being, and these are the flaws that MAKE ME HUMAN. I have spent my life either denying them or feeling guilty over them - and instead I can choose to say ok these are part of me. These are going to cause me to make mistakes. But through mistakes we grow. If you accept a problem you diminish it - if you deny it you give it fuel. If my flaws hurt others, they are free to tell me. Those who are so inclined may choose to scream and shout and punish - but most people are not so punitive. Most people opt for a lower key way of trying to say "hang on, thats a bit off". They tease.

When people tease, they are inviting me to look at my humanity, at my flaws. If I accept my flaws, then the fear of being 'not special' no longer holds its sting. I can see that a tease is an attempt to have fun, but also to point out a flaw. It is a way of calling attention to it, and if I accept that I have the flaw, but that this does not mean I am evil, bad or worthless, then the tease can be seen as healthy, as an attempt to improve the relationship. When people tease me for such a flaw, I can say to myself "ok yeah sometimes I do come off a bit arrogant, I guess Im doing it a bit now huh?". It lets me acknowledge the flaw whilst laughing at it, and it defuses any tension that the presence of my flaw may have created. Its a safety valve. Because I am no longer afraid of my flaws being exposed, I no longer have to act meek and compliant to cover it. I can just be ME, warts and all.

But as long as I feel that need to be seen as special, as long as I deny that I am human and have flaws, I cannot change. As long as I live in shame and self punishment, I am doomed to live out the same things again and again. If I bring the flaw out in the open and accept it, then its power becomes less. It means I have to accept for a time that I may act in arrogant ways, I may sometimes seem stuck up or know-it-all. I may from time to time upset people, and they may tease me or criticise me because they do not desrve to feel bad either. But at this point instead of counter-attacking and shoring up my denial, I can say to myself "oopsie there I go again" and smile to myself because its a part of me I accept. Because I accept it - it no longer controls me.

I can accept my flaws without a loss of self esteem. I can recognise it is part of my humanity. It is people that accept their flaws and know what it is to be human who are able to be close to others, because their shame and denial no longer keeps them separate.

Sounds like some very important revelations there Rossie poo. And i agree with you, acceptance of yourself, warts and all is the key. Much more so than you first possibly realised.

[hummm_mabbe]

Aww you called me Rossie Poo Wheeeeee

Today I have been just trying to observe when my entitled type or "I am special" type thoughts come up - I have noticed that my internal punisher kicks off big time when this happens. There is also a blurred line - its like any behaviour that looks like me getting some need met is interpreted as entitled. Its like my punishing mode has lost the plot really on what constitutes "actually spolit or arrogant" and "whats actually normal".

[Wobbles]

Aww you called me Rossie Poo Wheeeeee

Today I have been just trying to observe when my entitled type or "I am special" type thoughts come up - I have noticed that my internal punisher kicks off big time when this happens. There is also a blurred line - its like any behaviour that looks like me getting some need met is interpreted as entitled. Its like my punishing mode has lost the plot really on what constitutes "actually spolit or arrogant" and "whats actually normal".

Yes i think it will be easy to go a bit too far in the punishing department. You're now newly aware of a behaviour pattern and understand it more, but i think you need to be careful not to punish yourself when you recognise those behaviours. If you do that, theres no real point in coming to an important realisation.

[hummm_mabbe]

Noooo thats not a new behaviour - its how its always been Anything that resembles me trying to get needs met is me being bad. The new insight has shown me just how much it happens, so I need to start to allow myself to get my needs met without punishing, whilst being able to distinguish that from stress-related overcompensation.

Tis a good thing

[Wobbles]

Yeah i know, i meant that you're newly AWARE of this old behaviour, and have a better understanding of it. So it would be easy to use overcompensation with this awareness aswell as other things.

Accepting that you have needs, because you're human, and that it's ok to ask for those needs to be met is a huge step. It is not unreasonable, manipulative, arrogant, aggressive or anything else to ask to be loved, accepted, respected, supported. EVERYONE has needs, and we're programmed by nacrissistic parents, to believe that those needs are bad, selfish and to be punished for asking for them to be met. Changing thinking and behaving to allow yourself the freedom to have those needs, and to ask for them without guilt, and the punishment is i believe a big step in recovery. And because we're allowed those needs, they are reasonable, we actually don't have to have anything to do with people who refuse to recognise them, respect them, we don't have to put up with people who are happy to abuse us.

So there in the lies the question of, when are we actually being abused, and when are we just overcompensating, over reacting and being too sensitive?!

Personally, i think having a defined set of self values, boundaries, and recognised, reasonable needs is the key to the above question. And anytime we feel those boundaries are being crossed, and needs aren't being met, we should first use communication, and failing that, we shouldn't allow guilt to continue having anything to do with those people.

Occasionally we might meet someone we're willing to make some compromises with but if we're already aware of our boundaries and needs, we'll also be aware of how much of a compromise we're willing to make.

Think i might be rambling now, i know what i mean.

[AveMaria]

I can accept my flaws without a loss of self esteem. I can recognize it is part of my humanity. It is people that accept their flaws and know what it is to be human who are able to be close to others, because their shame and denial no longer keeps them separate.

I like that! It sounds so scary and impossible to me though. I think that is the one thing that I am ultra paranoid about, that if anyone knew my flaws that they would use them against me or hate me as much as I hate myself. It also seems like I wouldn't be me then... if I have hidden all the stuff wrong with me for so long and no one else knows it... wouldn't they look at me totally differently if they knew? That sounds so positive how you wrote it though, that I am jealous of your bravery!

Hope you don't mind me responding on here, I have been skulking about reading it since I can relate to it really well... but as I am too much of a *!#@* I have been too insecure to go to a doctor and get a dx so I didn't want to respond.

xxx

[cafonez]

I can really relate to this.

1) yes, I tried to act like my dad for a long time, hanging onto his shadow, letting everyone know I was his son and if they didnt listen there were reprecussions.

2) To prove to myself I was not afraid of death I have been in car chases, been shot at .. etc.

3) I used to insist I needed to be included in everything my friends did and there could be no secrets between friends. I had to be in the center of all the action and gossip or I got so angry I refused to be their friends and I would exclude them from future events

4) I felt because I was my father's son people had to do for me, and if not then they would have problems

5) As I got older in my 20's I acted cold hearted and angry because I wanted people to be too afraid to get close to me

6) Good Example for me and I know you can probably relate: If I am somewhere and I feel outnumbered, I might feel anxiety but my mind would switch it off and I would start viewing my advantages, weapons in the environment etc to even the playing field even if no real threat was there.

7) I had one best friend growing up that I would always try and persuade him to agree with me on everything. If he didn't I'd tell him his weakness and why he was wrong and that he wasn't a strong person.

8) didn't really apply to me.

9) I felt my mother always told me what to do and never paid enough attention to who I actually was, I'd drive around with her car when I got my license and get into crazy car chases, dropping her spare tire at my chasers..etc.

10) I over analyze everything. I can twist anything the way I want it to be even if people don't see it my way. I can tell them why their wrong and come up with some facts why they need to agree with me.

[angel tears]

1) Acting in grandiose or haughty ways, as though you are very important or superior (whilst feeling very much that you are not) - Sometimes i like to come across as abit of a know it all and that i am so more experienced in things than other people (i always know better)

2) Trying to act as though you are not afraid of anything, being 'counterphobic' and deliberately doing stuff that scares you. - I push boundaries, i am scared of heights but does that stop me climbing ladders or standing on the edge of a cliff, oh no and its just to prove a point that nothing can beat me!

3) Trying to be centre of attention - Around men more i guess, i know how to be flirty and get the attention i need, though not in a nasty way

4) Feeling you shouldnt have to do certain tasks or that you should not have the same expectations placed on you as others - I act like because i have a mh problem that i have an excuse not to do things like pay bills etc if i feel bad

5) Not letting anyone get close to you, acting as though you do not need anyone else - Very big prob for me. As soon as i feel hurt or upset i push away and vocalise that i dont need them, i am strong and i have survived so far, when i am dying for some love and a hug but the fear of rejection is too big.

6) Suppressing or denying emotions such as anxiety that you view as weak - focusing on only showing 'strong' behaviours. Being too self controlled. - I will deny that i am anxious or upset, i will push tears away etc but i will openly show i am strong and independant, pride is high!

7) Acting in a controlling or dominant way (again with a feeling of underlying fear) - will decide who comes around and when, when we go out, what we do, all depends on what kinda day i am having

8) Being extremely competitive and that you cannot be beaten (again out of fear) - My inner tantrum when i am beat is huge!!!!, i feel attacked and that i am not good enough

9) Being rebellious (out of a feeling of being controlled or dominated) - Oh yes!!!, if i percieve that i am being controlled then i will do the very thing that i know pisses the person off just to make a point!!

10) Intellectualising or rationalising emotions or actions to the exclusion of healthy expression - whenever i have a feeling like sadness or anger i have to describe it, why i feel it and discuss it like i need to explain myself because it isnt "normal".

phew, that was hard xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

I can accept my flaws without a loss of self esteem. I can recognize it is part of my humanity. It is people that accept their flaws and know what it is to be human who are able to be close to others, because their shame and denial no longer keeps them separate.

I like that! It sounds so scary and impossible to me though. I think that is the one thing that I am ultra paranoid about, that if anyone knew my flaws that they would use them against me or hate me as much as I hate myself. It also seems like I wouldn't be me then... if I have hidden all the stuff wrong with me for so long and no one else knows it... wouldn't they look at me totally differently if they knew? That sounds so positive how you wrote it though, that I am jealous of your bravery!

Hope you don't mind me responding on here, I have been skulking about reading it since I can relate to it really well... but as I am too much of a *!#@* I have been too insecure to go to a doctor and get a dx so I didn't want to respond.

xxx

Hullo Ave

Its amazing that you should say that, because its exactly how I have been feeling abut it. Ive been consciously aware for about 2 years (and previously, not aware at all ) that I have this side to me, but it only comes out when I am feeling scared, desperate or overwhelmed. Its an automatic reaction to feeling "I will not be able to get what I need / protect myself". But all the same, it still comes across to others as being spoiled or arrogant because I am so good at hiding the real emotions, like anxiety and so on.

I have been ashamed of it for the last 2 years, and only half wanted to take it out of the cupboard and look at it, a bit like some old skeggy pair of underpants that you know eventually you have to wear when you run out of clean washing - you just open the drawer and try not to look at them I think lately I am coming to see that it was a necessary mode of survival - there were no other options for me as a kid than this, and in many ways it has helped me. Its a flaw, something that does not always help me and may even feed into my problems a lot, but I want to try to stop being so ashamed of it. I want to pick those underpants up out the drawer and say "oh well, I DO own these pants, and really its not a crime to own them. Yes some people may go oh my god what horrible pants but thats not the same as 'take your pants and jump into the sea you vile pant wearing creature' ".

Other people can act arrogant or entitled and still have people like them, because its only one bit of their charcter. Others recognise they have a flaw, but dont insist they completely banish that flaw before they will talk to them, but it feels like with me I am on constant alert in case ANY of this should leak out. It makes me anxious, and when I get anxious, guess what ... I overcompensate! So I actually make it happen, the thing im scared of

Im glad you wrote back and didnt hide away :)

[hummm_mabbe]

I can really relate to this.

1) yes, I tried to act like my dad for a long time, hanging onto his shadow, letting everyone know I was his son and if they didnt listen there were reprecussions.

2) To prove to myself I was not afraid of death I have been in car chases, been shot at .. etc.

3) I used to insist I needed to be included in everything my friends did and there could be no secrets between friends. I had to be in the center of all the action and gossip or I got so angry I refused to be their friends and I would exclude them from future events

4) I felt because I was my father's son people had to do for me, and if not then they would have problems

5) As I got older in my 20's I acted cold hearted and angry because I wanted people to be too afraid to get close to me

6) Good Example for me and I know you can probably relate: If I am somewhere and I feel outnumbered, I might feel anxiety but my mind would switch it off and I would start viewing my advantages, weapons in the environment etc to even the playing field even if no real threat was there.

7) I had one best friend growing up that I would always try and persuade him to agree with me on everything. If he didn't I'd tell him his weakness and why he was wrong and that he wasn't a strong person.

8) didn't really apply to me.

9) I felt my mother always told me what to do and never paid enough attention to who I actually was, I'd drive around with her car when I got my license and get into crazy car chases, dropping her spare tire at my chasers..etc.

10) I over analyze everything. I can twist anything the way I want it to be even if people don't see it my way. I can tell them why their wrong and come up with some facts why they need to agree with me.

Dude you are like James Dean! The true rebel I hope you drive a Mark 1 Ford Mustang, that would be cool, like Bullitt!

Does all this stuff still apply, or have you found yourself not doing it so much? If youre like me I guess it comes out when you feel most under pressure or stressed?