She Says My Bpd Traits Are Just Another Excuse For My Temper

[slimspider]

I have been looking at the traits of BPD and I reckon I have some....

def.. fear of abandonment which makes me act in a controlling and way.

def.. short fuse and temper / irratability.... poor wife gets it - especially when I am stressed..e.g. asking for directions in car!!

Tried to explain about BPD and how this might be something I have traits of....

she says it is all a bit convenient... I used to think it was due to a mitral valve prolapse (similar traits apparently)

she has put up with so much but is now no longer prepared to... but I am not looking to an excuse...

she really did not understand when I was beside myself begging her not to leave... even for a week... she thought I was being

selfish as she was feeling really bad herself.... and low etc, and yes if I didnt have abandonment fears I could let her go and

see if she wanted to come back..... but I cant do that.... it is my worst fear come real.... she cannot understand this as she could quite

easily exist by herself... her birthday treat was to stay in a hotel by herself... I would absolutely hate that... we are so different

wonder what it would be like if two BDPs were married?!!!!

both fearing abandonment... no one would go out!!!!???

but I wish she could understand how I feel....

[Ocean Wolf]

Sometimes, people get confused between an excuse and a reason or explanation. A reason/explanation is, I think, a tool that helps us understand why we do things and take the steps to prevent some of those things from happening. I think it's one of the first steps to taking responsibilty. But, since excuses and explanations often get confused, that isn't always recognised. And it is only taking responsibility if you use it to help you get better. Sorry I'm going about in circles.

Considering your past.. er... history that you have explained concernign your wife, it is not surprising that she sees this new found knowledge as an excuse. What I would suggest is to show her you are taking responsibilty. It may take awhile, but if she sees you getting better... well, that's a good thing.

Good luck and let me know if there's anything I can help with.

[Wobbles]

I agree with Ocean.

I think the first step is to take responsibility for these issues and get help for them. Join an anger management course, get to your doctors about possible meds, and ask for therapy. Regardless of a diagnosis, or label, or brand name thats written accross the band aid that is plastered onto the box we fit into, if there are things in your lfe and relationship that is causing problems, you need to take responsibility for them, and do some proactive to deal with them.

Once you have all of that in place, you can go to your wife and say something along the lines of 'I have these anger issues, and i fear you leaving me. I love you so much and and i realise that the way i act is pushing you away, which is the last thing i want. This is what i'm doing abot it; seeing a counsellor, taking meds, joined an anger management group, started writing a mood diary, and want to learn more healthy and effective ways of dealing with my problems, so that they don't have as much of a negative impact on you. All i'm asking for is time, that you stay with me and support me through this difficult time, and have patience with me. And i promise i will try my hardest to get better for you, and for me so that we can be happy together again.'

This is you taking responsibility, and showing that you are indeed doing something about it, and doing something positive. You also then need to leave it in her hands. You cannot force her to stay. And i'm sure you wouldn't want her to if she is miserable, but you must understand that your abandonment fears are your own, and the more you cling to your wife and beg her, the more she'll pull away. So you need help to deal with your abandonment issues, and find strategies for coping if she does decide to leave you.

It is really hard, and the desperation, frustration and helplessness you're feeling must be absolutely awful.

[Rael]

totally agree with everything that has been said above. looking at it from the perspective of someone whos bf was supposed to seek help for aspergers, i knew it would take time to fix things, but all i need is to see that steps are being taken, even if its just little steps. my bf wont even make a doctors appointment, which makes it so much harder to deal with his behaviours because he is doing absolutely nothing to take responsibility for things.

xxx

[slimspider]

All seems sound advice.... It is so difficult not to be clingy... but I will try...

She keeps wanting to be away... weekend here.... few days there...

and I find it so hard and lonely and worried...

The key to her staying is what happens at a womens centre course she will do after Easter...

She has been referred there by her counsellor who told her that our marriage is an "abusive" one..

prob right but sounds drastic and having a label put on it has knocked her back...

she now will do this course and I am worried that the first thing they will say is "get out"... but

I have not been abusive since she warned me that she had had enough of my tantrums...

only once or twice a week but enough!!

since Xmas I have not had one... I feel really in control and I wouldnt dare in any case as I know she would be straight out....

She now says she has to believe and trust I have changed.... then to forgive... then to love again...

each is a hurdle and we are still on the first...

She says she could fail at any one... or the course might empower her to leave... or suggest that it would be better for the children

so that they learn that our relationship is not one to be accepted...

But I know that now and so dont need to break up the family??? surely it would be enough to explain to the kids... dad used to be angry but

he has stopped now as this is not right.... doesn't need to be a break up for them to know that???

I will look into anger management... and I have bought lots of books too.... chap called Richard Skerritt on internet... none arrived yet so hope good..

Also have ordered some from this site... by paying the £20 sponsor... but there was nowhere to put my address so not sure how I will get them and the DVD's

[Wobbles]

Slim, you might not like what i'm about to say, but i feel honesty is important, and remember that this is only MY opinion.

It must be very difficult for your wife to be married to a man who is or used to e abusive. Just because you haven't had any outbursts since xmas, doesn't mean that the past didn't happen for your wife. She will have so many issues to deal with. Trust, forgiveness, security, her own self esteem and confidence which will have been lost, being smothered and depended on heavily, and she's obviously not in love with you anymore.

Regadless of the outcome, you need to get help.

If the course she goes on empowers her to leave, then that's what she needs to do for herself. And it still stands that you need to get help because that's what you need to do for yourself.

The relationships isn't just the children, and so even if you aren't having outbursts, damage has been done, which doesn't go away overnight. The hurt that has been caused doesn't just disappear, just because you feel you're doing better. And it's unfair to expect the rest of your family to just get over it and go back to normal.

I strongly suggest getting help to deal with your adandonment issues, because i'm afraid of what might happen to you if you don't, and she does leave you. You will be doing yourself and your wife a huge favour by getting help with that issue, and i believe you should be placing a lot more energy on getting help, rather than trying so hard to hold onto her.

If it was one of us on here, talking about our partner who treats us badly, we would all ask them why they're still with their partner. And i feel i must be honest, and say that if you've abused your wife in the past, whether it be physical or verbal or emotional, you need to take responsibility for that and do something about it instead of whining about being afraid she'll leave you. Being afraid is no excuse to treat someone badly, and neither is having a mental illness, especially if you're aware of your issues, you have the responsibility to yourself and your family to do something about it, instead of trying to make your wife responsible for the relationship and how it turns out.

It is not going to help your kids for your wife to stay where she is if she's truly miserable, it will do more damage.

I really feel you need to start helping yourself, before expecting your wife to suddenly forgive and forget the past, and love you anyway.

You've made a good start with the books, but if you're serious about keeping your wife, you'll go to the doctors and be honest, and demand as much help as you can get, for everyone involved's sake. This is not down to your wife, and she shouldn't be placed in a situation where she has to choose between splitting her family up or keeping it together, for fear of what you might or might not do.

Once you start getting the help you need, and you actually start showing change, then she will believe and trust you're changing, and with that will come the forgiveness, and as you're getting better, and being a better person, hopefully she will fall in love with you again. But there are no garantees in life, and you need to equip yourself with the tools to survive if she decides she doesn't want to be with you anymore.

I'm really sorry if that comes accross as harsh. xx

[Ocean Wolf]

I'm sorry, I'm probably going to sound harsh too. And I agree with what Wobbles has said.

The relationship does sound abusive. I seriously doubt it's the label that knocked her back. To someone who is being abused, it is drastic. Not the label, the experience. I think if you really want her to stay, your going to have to admit to what you've done.

"Only once or twice a week." I hope you see what's wrong with that sentence. And what's wrong with having outburts every week.

Just because you haven't had any outbursts since Christmas, doesn't mean the danger is passed. Neither does it mean she's going to automatically forgive and forget. Neither does it mean anyone should expect her to. I understand that you probably don't know how abuse fucks with the mind, but definitely don't undermine that. Especially not on a forum where people have been abused and many (myself included) are still having problems from it.

[Crocus]

Martin abused me when we first got together, it lasted the first 6 months and hasn't occured since then. We've now been together over 3 years and I still jump and get scared if he shouts. When he's in a bad mood I am on edge so much I can barely think. Sometimes even time doesn't heal those wounds when you've been abused.

[cafonez]

I think fear of abandonment and jealousy are two different things. Fear of abandonment is that you dont want to be alone. You'd rather have someone than no one and you'll cling to bad friends just to have someone around. Even if you know you could be putting yourself at risk for negative exposure. Being along can be depressive for some people. No one likes to feel lonely it's human nature. Even as a child we all cry to get the attention of someone because children do not want to be alone they need people to survive.

Once you realize your life is not at risk or that you are in any real danger if your alone, then its a first step to working on fear of abandonment.

Jealousy is something that if your significant other is doing something and you can't do it too, then well to a jealous person then the significant other needs to stop doing it without you and include you or your going to act out in rage because you don't feel its fair if they have fun, or are around other people without you. I had to fight a lot of jealous feelings since I started dating. I had thought that my father was always right and he used to control my mom, so I thought it was perfectly normal, however the world does not work that way. She wasn't allowed to go out without one of his friends, she wasn't allowed to go eat at places because he didn't want her too, etc. Thats jealousy. Not fear of abandonment.

I know both issues really well and I've worked through them. I really hope you can find the help you need and you should see at the very least some sort of clinical social worker and maybe someone who is very familiar with relationships. It is possible you could have traits of BPD, I am not in any place to say you do or don't, but professional opinions are needed. Acknowledgment and knowing you need help is a first step, but make sure you make the step to get help. If you also realize your acting a certain way do your very very best before you feel the onset of the anger, ask yourself if you really are in control and are you ready to accept the consequences of any actions you are about to take. Actions can take 1 second, but consequences can last a lifetime. Once the consequences are in effect, saying sorry is too late.

Example: If I get angry and I decide to allow myself to lash out on a friend of mine, a best friend, and he never wants to see me again, it would be my fault and the consequences of my actions. It is I that chose to act out in such a manner, and he/she would have every right to want to end friendship with me because they may never feel safe again.

[slimspider]

Well.. that all sounds fair and sound advice !!

Actually I think some of the most sane (understanding) people are on this site!!

I can see where I have been a bit naive.... "only twice a week" etc... well pointed out...

Also how insensitive it is to be "winging" about my feelings on this site.. when there has been abused people..

I suppose I am a bit self centered at the moment... but am struggling to survive so self preservation comes in..

but I will take on board what you all say...

In fact I has been to the docs... about feb and told him I didnt feel normal and that there was something a bit odd...

of course he looks at me as a totally normal rational person he knows who is normally fine... and it was not until I broke

down that he started to take me seriously.... now on citalopram and have referral to mental health team.

but since then I have done my own research and found out about BPD.... it fits me... I can self assess against the 9 criteria

and know I have at least 5 so I have it?!! (BPD)

by the way what is a 'CPN' - I keep seeing this word on the site....and what is 'meds' ? medication??

[Wobbles]

Seeing the doc and and being refered to the mental health team are positive steps. Have you heard from them yet? And how is the citalopram working for you?

A CPN, can't answer you on that one sorry, a particular type of nurse, but other than that i don't know as i don't have one.

You have just as much right to be here than the rest of us, and talk to us about your feelings, and i admire the way you have taken everyone's honesty.

Personally, and it has taken me a long time to get to this point, but i wouldn't be too worried about pushing for a formal diagnosis of BPD, it comes with a lot of stigma attached to it. I would more work out what aspects of it are affecting you the most and get help with those things.

My Therapist doesn't know i was diagnosed with BPD 8 years ago in Australia. It has never come up, and it doesn't need to. We're working on the main issues that are affecting my life adversely while i take anti depressants, and i find that is enough. I feel that if i did get a diagnosis of BPD here in the UK, i wouldn't get as much help as i'm getting, i would feel labelled and judged simply because of that label. He may have worked it out from the fact that all of my feelings are very black and white, and to the extreme, and other things like that, but we're working on each particular problem, rather than working on an illness, if that makes sense.

Anyway, keep us updated on how you're doing.

[walker]

CPN - community psychiatric nurse

work as part of mh teams, sometimes attachd to surgery

[slimspider]

Not nheard from the mental health yet... the doc said there is a long waiting list...

the citalopram... I have been on fore 4 weeks.... doc said it would take that long to work..

I have not been so tearful when talking about things... buit apart from that when I think about the poss

of being without my partner... it makes me feel absolutely hopeless.... I keep thinking about ways to

end it.... and often I wish I could just click a finger to make the pain and the worry all go away...

but havechildren so could not do it......

but dont know how we would exist just the three of us... we are such a family... we ahve great times... its just that

I am not good with my wife....

I realsie now... I wish I could go back in time and make it all better...

she is slowly trusting that i have changed.... 3 months and nothing...

I do all the wahing , ironing, shopping, cooking,, anything I can do to make the house nice for her...

she still wants to be out a lot... and seems not to want to be with me in case I talk to her about how sorry I am etc.

she says it brings her down so I have to try to pretend I am happy and like normal... but it is hard.. as inside I am hollow..

[Crocus]

I don't like when Martin goes on about how sorry he is either, like I'm meant to comfort him and make him feel better when I was the victim and the one that needs comforting. His apologies feel very selfish.

[Wobbles]

Not nheard from the mental health yet... the doc said there is a long waiting list...

the citalopram... I have been on fore 4 weeks.... doc said it would take that long to work..

I have not been so tearful when talking about things... buit apart from that when I think about the poss

of being without my partner... it makes me feel absolutely hopeless.... I keep thinking about ways to

end it.... and often I wish I could just click a finger to make the pain and the worry all go away...

but havechildren so could not do it......

but dont know how we would exist just the three of us... we are such a family... we ahve great times... its just that

I am not good with my wife....

I realsie now... I wish I could go back in time and make it all better...

she is slowly trusting that i have changed.... 3 months and nothing...

I do all the wahing , ironing, shopping, cooking,, anything I can do to make the house nice for her...

she still wants to be out a lot... and seems not to want to be with me in case I talk to her about how sorry I am etc.

she says it brings her down so I have to try to pretend I am happy and like normal... but it is hard.. as inside I am hollow..

You're making a great start slim, and i'm really sorry you're hurting so much. I do hope things get better.

[Rael]

i think its great that you are making positive steps and it shows a lot that people can be honest with you about how they see what you say you do and you have taken it on board and not got defensive etc, that definitely to me shows promise and understanding of yourself. i know it must be hard and you want to make up for things and show and say how sorry you are but you are doing that just by making the big effort that you are now. keep it up and i wish you the best of luck

xxx

[Crocus]

I think the issue is also that when he apologised the subject was raised and I had so much anger I was bottling up and scared to get out. And I had to keep it all in whilst he was sat there expecting me to do what? comfort him? say it's ok don't worry? say it doesn't matter anymore it's in the past? what? I was still hurting and angry about what he did and how he treated me and I didn't want to talk about it, I didn't want the subject raised, I wanted him to just stop the behaviour and prove it to me, prove he loved me, prove he cared, prove he wanted me, because his abuse had destroyed all that, made me feel unloved, uncared for, unwanted, unworthy, made me hate myself, angry at myself, angry at him, and then he sat there saying sorry? and what did he want me to say to that? to do?

I'm not criticising you, I'm trying to get you to see the other side, to see that your apologies mean nothing till you repair all the damage you've done to her over the years, if it can even ever be repaired. Because the thing is, no amount of apologies can repair that hurt, worthlessness, low self esteem, deprivation of feeling cared for and loved and wanted and needed etc...and not only that but are almost an insult because the apology is about you not her. The apology is to make you feel less guilty which is why you persist, why saying it once is not enough, you feel you have to keep saying it till she accepts it so that you can feel better about yourself, why should she accept it?

Maybe you need to face up to the damage that you have caused and that perhaps you may never get that forgiveness you are after, and that if you do it will be in her time not yours, when she is ready, when you have proven to her that you have changed, and how long it takes to prove it is not down to you either, after years of abuse, a few months will not fix it all, will not prove it. Crowding her and being needy of her will not prove it, being jealous and possessive will not prove it, but will in fact continue to make her feel that it is only your own interests you are concerned with not hers.

[AndyL]

This is an extremely interesting thread. So, naturally, I'm going to kill it with one of my long-winded diatribes. C'est la vie! Anyway, I'd like to put my two shekels in on a couple of things that have come up here. I’m going to break this up into several posts in the hope that what I say will actually be read and not felt to be too daunting due to its length.

PART I: Jealousy

First, I really liked the explanation of jealousy. When I was in treatment, we actually took a mini psychiatry class (weird, I guess, but it was amazing--my favorite part of treatment). They explained the difference between jealousy and envy as a case of the former realizing one's want of the whole person (or object in the lingo) and the latter one's want something the other person has. So, for example, you can be jealous when a person is away with friends or has someone else interested in herr--because that involves her as a person, all of her--or merely be envious that she has great friends and you don't. A little off topic, but interesting.

[AndyL]

PART II: Fairness (Or Lack of It)

Now to my main topic. Some of the talk about abuse here speaks to a fundamental issue between society's responses to angry men vs. angry women. When one has BPD, that person is prone to angry rages--what you and your wife call "tantrums." The way society looks at this is that if it's a woman, she's a bitch; if it's a man, he's an abuser. Same behavior, different responses, typically. It's why BPD goes underreported in men: many of them end up in jail. Men, ostensibly, are more dangerous because they're stronger than women, so society has a much more alarmed reaction when men misbehave.

This, if you think about it, is sexist on both ends. It's sexist to men in the sense that the knee-jerk response to serious anger and violent behavior in men in relationships is to call it, for instance, domestic violence and lock 'em up, or otherwise take them out of the arena, to keep people safe. The response to women is to not take their anger very seriously which, of course, frustrates them even more, and sometimes causes the behavior to escalate.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not offering this as an excuse for the violent behavior many times displayed by men with BPD. I'm merely taking an extreme example as an illustration for how the public responds to the same symptoms displayed by both genders in an attempt to set things in context. And of course I’m not insinuating that you have hit your wife. I exaggerate to make a point.

However, this does not exonerate your negative behavior, Slimspider, nor am I condoning your actions (which, I guess, amount the same thing). I just wanted to use this topic as an opportunity to point out to the community here that calling it abuse when a man rages but is remorseful and seeking help, then turning around and giving hugs to a woman doing the very same thing, is not fair. I see this all the time here, at least where women are concerned and it makes me, frankly, a tad bilious (being a man and all).

[AndyL]

PART III: Consequences

Anyhoo, I think taking responsibility for what you've done, and making the attempt to get better, is heroic. In my case, my fiancée actually did see it as heroic, but I had to accept quite a few tough consequences in the meantime. Weathering those consequences and still bouncing back engendered a lot of respect and admiration, from both her and everyone else connected to us both directly and indirectly. This is absolutely true, at least for me.

Even so, there is baggage, and it's taken a long time for her--a year so far--and permanent steady behavior on my part for her to truly move on. Even now, when I get angry (and who doesn't, although with healthy people it's usually proportionate to the triggering event), I'm held to a higher standard. That may never change. It's what I have to accept if I want to be with her. But boy is she worth it (smokin' hot for 46 and having had two kids, let me tell you)!

And, unfortunately, you may have to accept that the relationship has failed.* If it fails, you have to take responsibility for your part in it and try to learn from it. This happened to me with the failure of my marriage. Horribly painful. I'm still paying and paying for it with consequence I never dreamed of. But I learned from it and act differently in the relationship I’m in now. This is called growth.

-----------------------

* Interestingly enough, this manifests itself differently for men and women: women tend to throw the man out; men usually take off and avoid contact when possible. But I digress.

[AndyL]

PART IV: A Little Hard-Won Advice from Someone Who’s Been There

So I think that the best thing you can do right now is seek to limit the negative behavior that so frightens your wife and work on getting better. Let her take part. Show that you value her enough to want to get better for the sake of your marriage. Share with her the steps you’re taking to do this day by day.

And give her the space and distance she needs to protect herself. If she’s committed to the marriage this is not abandonment; it’s a way for her to decompress and recover from the trauma she’s experienced as the result of the behavior you’ve exhibited towards her.

Finally, cut her some slack. If she stays, realize she’s cutting you a whole lot more. And that, ultimately, she loves you enough to realize that you’re worth it. It’s up to you to validate her faith.

[Ocean Wolf]

In response to AndyL's Part 2: Fairness- While you do bring up a good point about something society does in general, I don't understand which part of the conversation before that speaks to that issue? We are refering to slimspider as a man because he is one. I don't think at any point in the conversation any of us said it was just men or that women don't abuse. Actually, I'm pretty sure I've said (although probably in a different thread) that, as a woman, I have been abusive myself. Sorry, but I don't understand why you said the conversation speaks to this issue.

[AndyL]

Because I'm seeing the word "abuse" a lot in the context of this thread, pointed at Slimspider, who is a man. Call yourself what you want, but no community member here will attach that label to you. Not the case here.

[jenga]

A quick response to Andy's Part 2 on Fairness:

As one of those "bitches", I completely agree. I can't believe some of the things that have come out of my mouth towards my husband. if anyone heard him doing the same to me, I know for sure they would call him abusive. When he really does call me on it for what it is, and gets angry back at me, well, that's one of the best ways to halt it. I have been so use to doling our whatever suits me at the time, and it's just not okay, whatever my reasons are. I know it is abusive.

My emotional turmoil/depression etc.. has rarely, if ever, been taken seriously by those who know me. You know.. women get like this. "Maybe she has her period?" Whatever. But when my husband showed his vulnerability and got depressed last fall, everyone was concerned. I still get asked if he's okay now, but no one asks about me.

And finally, it has only been recently that I have really understood the fact that mental illness is behind so much of society's problem's. Everyone rushes to think that these men are just bad evil people who are abusive/dangerous for no reason- that they are evil. And homeless people are just lazy bums. In some way, I think that society contributes to women being/feeling victimized. (and I am NOT talking about this particular thread!"

Oh, I know I am digressing and sort of hijacking this thread so I will stop now.

[AndyL]

I think there's a danger of this thread being hijacked. Don't blame yourself, jenga, it was I. I'll start a new thread with part II as its topic. In the meantime, let's address Slimspider's issues. All I ask is that when flinging around the word abuse, we be mindful of its context. I'm not saying this as a moderator, it's just my opinion. Ignore it if you will. Having said my piece I won't be offended.