She Says My Bpd Traits Are Just Another Excuse For My Temper

[AveMaria]

This is an interesting thread and I can see it from both sides. I'm the one with mh issues and I definitely have behaviors that make me no fun to be in a relationship with, which I am also trying to work on. But, I have also been in a relationship where my partner was not treating me the way he should and I wanted to leave, but decided to give him another chance... and it is not easy. Like sweet and others have said, its more difficult in many ways. Its like starting over... except you don't get a clean slate, you have to overcome all the damage you did before you can even get to a clean slate. And that takes a lot longer than just a couple of months. For a small bit of advice, try to talk to your wife because she may be different as each couple is different, but when I am working on things with my fiance... it is just really annoying when he does trivial stuff to suck up...etc the laundry, dishes to show how "wonderful he is"... no he already proved he's not wonderful, stop trying to look like you really are planning on doing that everyday for the next fifty years all of a sudden. If you have extra energy, focus it on the real issues. But, if you are doing it so that your wife can focus on her things or so she can relax and you let her know that is the reason... then power to you! Lol, its all in the little differences. And secondly, like sweet said... don't act like since you are trying... everything is wonderful and your wife should think you are so great. That's not gonna happen overnight and really, you have a lot of work to do, to expect her to even think about forgiving you or accepting your apology and trusting you is so unfair to what she went through and how she is probably feeling. Like I already said, until you have at least gotten to a clean slate, don't expect anything from your wife. You made the mistake, you need to fix it before you should expect her to give some too. Once you have shown you are able to be in a relationship and can be trusted, then it is the time to both come together and actually make the relationship work, not before when you are "trying".

On a positive note, it sounds like you really care about your wife and want to make things work. That is very admirable and its not easy realizing and admitting you made a mistake, let alone working to fix it, so good job and good luck!

xxx

[slimspider]

Well once again I am blown away by this sound and thoughtful advice from all of you..

I can empathise with Sweet Deanie when she says about the continual apologies... yes you are right

it should not be about how I feel... it is about her.. she has been unhappy and so when i apologise I

am bringing up the feelings again... then she doesnt want to know and I feel worse .. want to apologies more etc, etc.

Actually this afternoon we just went out for a walk and a nice lunch.,.. no talking about the past... we had a good time and

hugged etc... it was good... so agree wiht you SweetDeanie and I will cut out the apologies now!!

AveMaria... quite right too about the washing and ironing... in fact she said she feels a bit disempowered by it...

and felt that things had gone too much the other way... so yes will back off or just help when she wants to or needs

to have time out or to work (she does a lot of that at home)

Jenga-you have made me realise something that has been happening... when I lose it... it is my way of making her 'abuse'

stop.. it is like I go one further...one louder...one more determined... and someone has to back down...

it think it is similar to agression in life... e.g. is like that in a street fight... ( I dont do this but have seen it) it is all about front... who feels the most confident.. body language, aggressive face, threats etc... someone will either back down or 'bottle it'.. even monkeys / stags etc. do this,. front each other to get their hierarchy estabnlished...

It shouldnt be like that in a marriage... we now try the six thinking hats approach together .. cant remember it all but something

like green hat is the idea... yellow hat is the postitives. etc.. black hat is the negatives so you sort of discuss each topic togehter

cant remember the other hats but keeps us calmer...

AndyL yes I do agree about the 'unfairness' of the label abusive... it is abusive but then so is it when ladies do it...

once my wife hit me on the head with the metal pole of a carpet cleaner (Eubank) now that is a story that people find funny

and the pole bent... but it didnt hurt!

If I were to just push her it would be domestic violence...

But that is life - we are the stronger species and so I suppose it is fair... like we all like the story of david and goliath....

actually all he did was throw a stone .... not really a fair fight... goliath did not stand a chance,.. if it had been the other way

round Goliath would have been a bully.... David is a hero but it was a sucker punch??

AndyL - thanks for the insight into your improvements... i do hope / and believe I can do this too... but what you said about the

year etc. and how things still are..I can fully equate to... but like yours.. mine is smoking hot too at 46 and two kids...

i suppose otherwise we wouldnt bother!! wish I had realsied how much I liked her before all this started!!

I hope to be able to say things are on the up... but this advice from you all has given me a great way forward and I sincerely

thank you for it all this advice... i doubt I could get this from the most experience marriage counsellor... mental health forum??

I reckon we are some of the most clear thinking people out there?!!!

let all have a great saturday night... and future too!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Wobbles]

PART II: Fairness (Or Lack of It)

Now to my main topic. Some of the talk about abuse here speaks to a fundamental issue between society's responses to angry men vs. angry women. When one has BPD, that person is prone to angry rages--what you and your wife call "tantrums." The way society looks at this is that if it's a woman, she's a bitch; if it's a man, he's an abuser. Same behavior, different responses, typically. It's why BPD goes underreported in men: many of them end up in jail. Men, ostensibly, are more dangerous because they're stronger than women, so society has a much more alarmed reaction when men misbehave.

This, if you think about it, is sexist on both ends. It's sexist to men in the sense that the knee-jerk response to serious anger and violent behavior in men in relationships is to call it, for instance, domestic violence and lock 'em up, or otherwise take them out of the arena, to keep people safe. The response to women is to not take their anger very seriously which, of course, frustrates them even more, and sometimes causes the behavior to escalate.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not offering this as an excuse for the violent behavior many times displayed by men with BPD. I'm merely taking an extreme example as an illustration for how the public responds to the same symptoms displayed by both genders in an attempt to set things in context. And of course I’m not insinuating that you have hit your wife. I exaggerate to make a point.

However, this does not exonerate your negative behavior, Slimspider, nor am I condoning your actions (which, I guess, amount the same thing). I just wanted to use this topic as an opportunity to point out to the community here that calling it abuse when a man rages but is remorseful and seeking help, then turning around and giving hugs to a woman doing the very same thing, is not fair. I see this all the time here, at least where women are concerned and it makes me, frankly, a tad bilious (being a man and all).

I have to say that i agree mostly with what you're saying Andy, that men are seen as abusers and women are just hormonal bitches.

But what i DON'T agree with is the condoning, sympathising, hugging etc with women on here that are abusers, and then chastising any male who admitts to being an abuser.

Personally, i do not and will not ever condone any sort of violent or aggressive behaviour, regardless of gender, i have seen the damage an abusive wife can do to her husband, and while it's not worldly recognised and called for what it is, i personally take offence a little, to the accusation that women especially, here are guilty of doing this. I have not seen others doing it either, however, i concede to the possibility that it has happened without my noticing.

[Wobbles]

Because I'm seeing the word "abuse" a lot in the context of this thread, pointed at Slimspider, who is a man. Call yourself what you want, but no community member here will attach that label to you. Not the case here.

If you read slim's posts, you'll see himself refer to his behaviour as abusive Andy, and that's at least how his wife sees it and feels about it.

And if there was a woman posting the same things, i would also describe her behaviour as abusive.

The only person that has turned this into a battle of the sexes, if yourself i'm afraid, which has diverted the topic from it's original topic.

It certainly isn't a case of, well slims a bloke so he must be abusing his wife, whereas if he was a chick, she'd just be pms'ing. Abuse it abuse, regardless of gender, and abuse is abuse if the person on the receiving end of it, perceives it as and experiences it as abuse. I think you're forgetting about his wife in the picture, who has been on the receiving end of whatever slim has dished out.

And i know that if a woman came on here admitting to the same behaviours, it would be called what it is, abuse.

[angel tears]

Hi

I think that there is alot of good advice here for Slimspider and i do agree that we have to be careful about the "abuse" word as most of us have been abusive at some point, it just depends to what extent and usually there are two sides to every story and that neither party is completly innocent. With me my bf was definately abusive to me, strangling me, hitting and shoving me etc but then i always tried to give it back as i was scared. He has done something about it though, he has stopped drinking, attended counselling and stopped spending money on stupid slot machines and i can say that after 3 months things are steadier and we are so much happier.

Didnt mean to side track here, was just saying to you slimspider that counselling does help like anger management. When bf told the doctor what he was doing he got help within 8 weeks which was positive, he is still doing it now but i am not going to judge you as if you have BPD then i can relate to that too, i have it and i can have temper problems but i to have worked on that in therapy.

Its all about compromise in a relationship. If you and your wife can talk about a way forward then good luck. I have started to trust bf again after 3 months but it does take a long time after you have been hurt so badly.

Hope you get the help you need xxxx

[angel tears]

Abuse is abuse no matter what gender and i am so aware of the damage it causes as i have massive problems with trust, low self esteem etc, just wanted to add that and hope i havent offended xx

[Crocus]

I used the word abuse because the description of Spider's actions towards his wife WAS abuse. If it had been a woman I would have still called it what it is/was! You won't find me anywhere on this forum molly coddling an abuser male or female. That doesn't mean I don't recognise that he wants to change, my post was to help him recognise exactly what effect abusive behaviour can have on the victim, to see a different perspective but his own, and therefore help him to fix his marriage if it is fixable...I'm sure only his wife can make that decision.

Like I say, I stayed with Martin and he's not abused me in 2 and a half years...well he's told me to fuck off a couple of times which perhaps is still abusive but I can handle it, because it's not happening with frequency and we communicate about it when we've both calmed down. But that's just my personal choice, and what I choose to accept another person may not.

He's talked about his wife being the one in control now, yet she drinks daily to cope and needs therapy to get the courage to leave...doesn't ring true for someone confident and in control to me. JMHO

[Crocus]

Also I've never said I'm perfect...I have abused my eldest daughter by neglecting her for majority of her life, which I personally feel more pain for than any abuse I've suffered myself in my entire life, and I believe always will. I don't believe anything that I do can make ammends for what I did or fix it. She doesn't get the choice to leave me, and never did, though as a loyal child with unconditional love for me she would not choose to leave even had she been given the choice, and that makes what I did so much worse than what Spider or anyone else on this forum has done.

The last 3 years I have tried to overcompensate for what I did, but it will never be enough. I love her so much and regret with all my heart how I treated her. So yes I too was an abuser, and being female doesn't change that.

Please do not reply with understanding or sympathy because I don't want it and don't deserve it. I just wanted to make the point that anyone can be an abuser male or female.

[AndyL]

Interesting stuff. There's no need to get defensive, though. In this forum, on this topic, everybody's right, and all opinions are welcome. Anyway, if anyone wants to talk about the issues I've brought up, please take it here and get back to the issues Slimspider has raised. My apologies for barging in with my big fat opinions (ass)! :lol:

[Crocus]

I'll admit I took it personal, because I've been on both sides of the fence. I don't believe there are 'excuses' for treating others poorly ie being abusive in any way, whether it be by being controlling, derrogatory, physically or verbally violent, emotional manipulation, sexual abuse etc.... And it felt as though you were trying to somehow make excuses for that kind of behaviour or defend it.

Yes it triggered me 100%. Because I don't want any of my abusers thinking they can find some label for themselves or be diagnosed with something and then have some lightbulb come on and say ahh that's why I treated that person the way I did..so it's not my fault then! Because yes it bloody well is! There is no excuse.

I don't make excuses for how I treated my daughter, others have tried and I don't want their excuses for my behaviour either. People want to say it was because I was abused or neglected as a child or because I never had a mother as a role model or because I was sick/ill or because because because.

The ONLY thing that matters is the damage that has been done to the victim of the abuse. In my case, my daughter. In Spider's case his wife. Using our labels or past as an explanation detracts from the wrong we have done and the guilt and remorse we SHOULD feel.

Yes diagnosis is good, diagnosis can mean the first step to recovery. The first step to learning how to change. But it DOES NOT and WILL NOT ever take away how wrong and guilty we are, or the damage that we have done.

I don't care if my mum has NPD or my dad has OCPD or my brother has god knows what...I don't care, because it doesn't change what they did to me, it doesn't make it better, it doesn't mean they had the right to do what they did, because we as adults no matter how sick, no matter what our pasts are, we are responsible for our own lives and actions.

TRIGGER WARNING

Paedophiles are sick, they can't help what they think and feel, but we don't say it's ok because he's not well! We don't allow him to make excuses for things he's done, or say to people it wasn't my fault I was ill! I've looked it up and done some research so it's ok now! I'm going to change so I'm sorry for what I did! And poof everything is all better again and lets all forgive and forget.

I realise that is an extreme example but at the same time what's the difference? It's ok that I abused such and such person in such and such way because at least I didn't molest a child? At least i'm not that bad? That's such hypocricy!

I'm sure there are sick people out there that have the same fantasies about doing things like that to children but that don't act on it, we don't know who they are, not like they'll tell us what they are thinking! But they control it! They don't act on it. I mean ok maybe I'm wrong, maybe ALL ppl that think about it do it...but do you really believe that?

Just the same as there are people who are sick and get violent thoughs in their heads, or abusive thoughts in their heads, wanting to hurt people in different ways, people that get really angry but don't act on it, don't say the bad things, don't put down other people....

The thing is, that no matter how sick we are, no matter how much pain we are in and have experienced in our lives, no matter how many times we've been rejected and abandoned and hurt and destroyed, we are adults, we have choices, we can choose to control our ACTIONS - maybe not our thoughts or our feelings - but our actions.

That being said I am sure there are people for example tourettes syndrome, and I'm sure that's not the only one where you cannot control your actions or words. BPD is not one of those!

But then if Martin punched or kicked me during an epileptic seizure I would not see it as abuse, would not feel emotionally injured by it, would not damage my psyche.

You can't say because you have BPD you didn't know what you were doing or could not control your actions or did not have a choice.

I'm not saying the choices are easy, when we're angry it's extremely difficult to control ourselves and not say something bad to someone to hurt them, to make them regret what they did that made us feel angry, to want to make them never want to do that thing again, but...you still have the choice to take the difficult road and control it.

And if you couldn't....then how come you've managed to the last couple of months? Or anyone else that once was the abuser, how have you managed to stop if you had no control? Why did it only happen in secret behind closed doors? Why was it only with the one person? If you can't control it then surely it would be all the time, everywhere with everyone? In which case you'd need to be in a secure unit on high dosage medication! Which let me think....you're not!

For those that have lost control to that point in the past and needed to be locked up and high dosage medication then I'm sorry as obviously this post does not refer to you and it wasn't your fault.

But..even then...how many people would stick by someone who was that sick and suffered directly because of it anyway? honestly? Those that would, I have to commend you because I'm not sure I could - or maybe if it was a one off but not if it happened numerous occasions.

I'm acutally now unsure after writing all this if I should post it, it's a pretty emotional post, but it is from my heart. And it's not just from a victim of abuse but from someone who is guilty myself of all that and more. And it's only for that reason I feel able to post it.

If it's too bad and should have been kept unsaid I will understand if it gets deleted.

[Crocus]

Spider I don't dislike you...and I want to say that making positive steps to change is a wonderful thing that I really do commend u on. I hope you continue to live a 'peaceful' life whether it be with your wife who I hope will come to terms with her own pain and see the effort you are making and stay together or whether it be by yourself or with someone else in the future. And as long as you do, you should be proud of yourself, no matter what outcome it brings, you will know inside the truth of how hard you worked towards changing. When we accomplish something it is never long before it becomes forgotten and we no longer praise our efforts or feel pride in ourselves anymore. But we really should, especially when it's a life changing thing.

And despite all the guilt that eats me up for what I did...I do also feel proud of how far I've come and how much I changed. And you should feel that too.

I'm sorry I hijacked your thread and I hope you will see it with the intention it is meant rather than the pain I know I'm displaying. I feel pretty ashamed of myself for sharing as much as I have, I've avoided sharing things about myself on this forum because I guess I'm scared of people knowing the truth about me, and I'm scared of dragging up the past and all the pain it holds.

I also really hope that some of the things I say will help you understand your wife better and therefore be able to deliver what she needs from you with the hope that this will help her forgive you and remain together.

I know the truth sometimes can be really painful, but sometimes I think it needs to be said, and I really hope that on this occasion I made the right choice by speaking it.

Please also know that much of what I've said is things I would have liked my abusers to know, so I guess in a way I'm using you as the scapegoat, but even so I still hope it will help you and your wife.

[slimspider]

No offence taken by me... look if someone can bother to spend time typing advice aimed at helping..

I am gratefull.... also for the insights into a women (abuse receivers) feelings..

A few months ago I thought ... OK I just have to be nice and it will all be OK..

Now I realise there is a lot more to it....

also key thing is that she can be happy and not unhappy... for some reason she is deeply unhappy..

so drinks to lift her feelings... she finds it difficult to come in from work.... needs space... likes to be by herself

but we are all in... TV can be blaring American voices e.g. Hannah Montana and Suite life etc...

So we are working on that... she has her own front room and cup of tea etc... but still needs the wine..

I think something Sweet Deanie said is quite key.... here it is copied.... " when we're angry it's extremely difficult to control ourselves and not say something bad to someone to hurt them, to make them regret what they did that made us feel angry, to want to make them never want to do that thing again, but...you still have the choice to take the difficult road and control it.

And if you couldn't....then how come you've managed to the last couple of months? Or anyone else that once was the abuser, how have you managed to stop if you had no control? "#

I did not understand why I had such a short fuse.. or why I prob still do.... the only thing I can describe is like a toilet flushing

once the water reaches a certain point on the syphon it flushes and it cannot be stopped.. this is how it is for me... it is a snap

an explosion.. almost a release.. I say things.. or else it is the more manipulative control e.g. make a comment when wife is

getting all dressed up for work.... "You never do that for me" etc...

I have recognised two things in me...

1) I have an anger problem... poss BPD ish... if not why do some of us have a short fuse....

2) I have an abandonement fear... hence the nasty comments hoping to as Sweet Deanie says "make them regret"or feel guilty.

But yes it is controlable depending on who the anger is directed at....

e.g. Someone pulls out in a car in front of me.... adrenaline.. anger... toilet flush.... I rage.. etc... afterwards you will look to see

who you are raging at..... if it is an unknown bloke... rage continues.... if it is a flustered lady.. rage subsides....

if it is an old lady.. rage turns to pity... if it is a professional boxer... rage disappears !! etc...

When I am at work... my boss is a bully... I take it all... never lose it there.....

At home I am not a bully but sometimes did lose it.... NOW...I see my wife in a different position... she is up there with the boss

or professional boxer...I cannot imagine a situation now where I will lose it... I am too scared too...

So yes it is controlable... for me anyway..

Just an update ...we (wife and I) had a great night... at a party... lot of wifes friends there... I was expecting a few dirty looks

as they all know now.... (about me) but not so... they were as normal... and better still wife was spending some time with me

instead of leaving me to the lads at the bar....

so a few dances... cuddles etc... mind she had had a few...

shame got back and she was sick and more sick and then went into the spare room...

just taken asprins and water up... she doesn't look too good....

sunday morning - oh well ironing here we go....!!!

keep well all...

[Crocus]

Thankyou! I'm glad you and your wife had a good night, sorry about the hangover though! I think you need more good nights, that's what will really mend things more than doing the housework and things, just having good times together.

[jenga]

Oh.. my....goodness!! As I just read the last 2 longer posts by Sweet Deenie, my heart was pounding. I am not even going to try to respond to them. Suffice it to say that I believe there is a BIG difference in the words "excuses" and "reasons."

[Ocean Wolf]

Yes, reasons help people understand why they do things and take the steps to stop whatever behavior it is that needs to stop. Excuses are used by some people to pretend they are not responsible for their behavior, so they decide they don't need to stop.

I prefer reasons.

[AndyL]

I think that's exactly true.

The other thing that some folks with BPD do is distort the whole "accept me as I am" thing. The point being missed here is that if we are raging, moody, depressed, abandonment-fearing black-and-white thinkers, nobody who is anything near healthy is going to accept that and we will likely end up alone and/or miserable, wondering why we lose friends and boyfriends/girlfriends/spouses and asking why nobody will live with us, regardless of how victimized we feel by either our mental illness or the people around us.

Now I'm not saying anyone has to change if they choose not to. But there are positive or negative consequences to most everything we do that involve other people. But if we say, accept me as I am or, I did this because I'm BPD and am not responsible for what I do (which is making an excuse), then there will be consequences that we may not like.

And that's truth as well.

I was going to end this there, but there's one more point I have to drive home: In spite of the negative media exaggerations about people with personality disorders, there is what Linehan called the "grain of truth." We have to face facts that we can be very unpleasant people. If we want to stop being kicked around for it it's up to us to change by getting better, or we're going to continue being on the business end of people taking action in one way or another order to protect themselves from our behavior.

[Ocean Wolf]

Useful things that I learned both in dbt and anger management that have helped my behavior towards Nick were how to listen and communicate (especially in an argument) and to think about what was more important: my relationship or winning an argument.

Actually, being able to recognise what was really going on with me was a huge thing. Finding the words to communicate it was also. Now, if I find myself loosing my temper, I take a look at why I'm doing it and what I'm feeling and take responsibilty for that. I listen to Nick tell me what's up with him. Also, since both of us have an issue with yelling, we try to keep the volume down which helps a lot, actually. Changing the words to mean what we want, but sound less accusing does wonders as well.

We still argue, of course, but it's a lot better than before.