"sexual Arousal" Mapped Onto Platonic Closeness

[hummm_mabbe]

Hullo

I know in the past a few people have sort of written about this. I wanted to see if others who have no recollection of actual sexual abuse experience this problem at all?

I know the whys and wherefores of it. I do not remember any sexual abuse at all, but I can see a mechanism for this problem developing. What has happened is that whenever I want to feel 'close' ina normal way to anyone, such as friendship, work colleagues, teachers and lecturers at school etc, its like I get that nice warm feeling in my heart and tummy (like normal folks) but it carries on going to right "down there".

The moment it feels like someone understands me, wants to know me, displays any kind of friendly interest or concern, 'that' feeling goes through me, followed instantly by a sense of self-disgust and the urge to hide my eyes from them. It drives a wedge between gaining a sense of closeness to people. The only way i can feel comfortable is if I am actually in a sexual relationshiop with a woman, because then its ok to have those sexual feelings. I tend to be a bit of a naughtiness addict in relationships too.

Does anyone else experience that sense of 'arousal' followed by self-reproach and disgust when they feel close to people?

[Wobbles]

I have been close to two female friends in my adult life. Both were older than me, both were bisexual. Both i felt understood me, we became close, and i confused my feelings of closeness, being understood, supported and liked as sexual attraction. To the point where when i lost touch with them both, it hurt just as much as breaking up with a partner would. I have other females i now would consider friends, but we're not close, i've not allowed closeness, but also because there is not that 'click' with them. There is no sexual attraction, so i think i've equated that with them not being 'right' for me to be close to. It's weird, unless i feel sexual attraction, i don't bother with them. Yet i'm not gay, my affections toward someone get skewed and i end up feeling infatuated with them, and idealizing them, to where i'm even jealous if they see other friends.

Same with males also, unless there is a sexual attraction, i don't bother with them. And i always end up having wonderfully sexual fantasies about these people, both male and female. I'm worried i'll never be able to feel close to someone, feel love for them as a friend without there being the sexual side effect.

And i have no proof or proper recollection of any sexual abuse, only a 'feeling' and suspicion.

[AveMaria]

I have never thought about it in this way, but after re reading everything you wrote, I think I probably do the same thing. I think it is maybe looked at a little differently in a girl though, since I am just well known for being ultra flirty and a major tease. But I can see how what you are talking about happens in my life when I am out having fun, I guess I never thought of it as inappropriate though as I mostly am around single guys in my age bracket, lol. But I do feel bad later, especially as I don't act on it, yet send off definite come hither vibes... and guys don't always take rejection very well. Do you think it is related to mh issues?

xxx

[AveMaria]

Just read Wobbles reply and I can definitely relate to

Same with males also, unless there is a sexual attraction, i don't bother with them

For a guy to be considered by friend, there has to be attraction. I always feel if they aren't attracted to me, there couldn't be anything about me that interests them, kinda weird though.

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

I have never thought about it in this way, but after re reading everything you wrote, I think I probably do the same thing. I think it is maybe looked at a little differently in a girl though, since I am just well known for being ultra flirty and a major tease. But I can see how what you are talking about happens in my life when I am out having fun, I guess I never thought of it as inappropriate though as I mostly am around single guys in my age bracket, lol. But I do feel bad later, especially as I don't act on it, yet send off definite come hither vibes... and guys don't always take rejection very well. Do you think it is related to mh issues?

xxx

Depending on what mode Im in and the state of my life, I can be extremely flirtatious too with girls (I am a blokie), as that kind of sexual attraction is 'ok'. My problem is more that any sense of closeness just comes up with anybody at all. Any sort of connection triggers that feeling which actually centres around my man region, and its disturbing to me. Its a bit like waking up to feel what you think is your partner running their hand up your leg and to think "ooh", only to look down and realise its the dog researching your undergarments - imagine how that would make you feel and you are halfway there!!

I like flirting, thats ok (well when I am feeling confident, otherwise I cannot do it and feel ashamed of myself and that I will be punished).

Its like, say Im talking to a man or woman at work who I barely know. They could be like 65 or whatever. But if they start to be nice to me, or I start to feel accepted, then whammo there it is. Its any form of human connection really, as opposed to people Im "meant" to be attrcated to like members of the opposite sex.

[hummm_mabbe]

I have been close to two female friends in my adult life. Both were older than me, both were bisexual. Both i felt understood me, we became close, and i confused my feelings of closeness, being understood, supported and liked as sexual attraction. To the point where when i lost touch with them both, it hurt just as much as breaking up with a partner would. I have other females i now would consider friends, but we're not close, i've not allowed closeness, but also because there is not that 'click' with them. There is no sexual attraction, so i think i've equated that with them not being 'right' for me to be close to. It's weird, unless i feel sexual attraction, i don't bother with them. Yet i'm not gay, my affections toward someone get skewed and i end up feeling infatuated with them, and idealizing them, to where i'm even jealous if they see other friends.

Same with males also, unless there is a sexual attraction, i don't bother with them. And i always end up having wonderfully sexual fantasies about these people, both male and female. I'm worried i'll never be able to feel close to someone, feel love for them as a friend without there being the sexual side effect.

And i have no proof or proper recollection of any sexual abuse, only a 'feeling' and suspicion.

Hullo wobbley person

I think this is a bit different, though it still sounds like it makes you feel lonely When you were little, did anyone make you feel fearful of ever being seen as gay? Like make a big deal out of being homophobic? My dad was a massive homophobe. Were your family at all prudish, or perhaps even a bit lax with sexual boundaries?

With my mum I guess I felt she talked about her "sexual needs" a bit too much (which some might term a form of "covert sexual abuse"), but at the same time would seem a prude if sex came on telly.

[AveMaria]

I don't really go out unless I am socializing, so I guess I am not totally sure then. I think it is similar though, because I am feeling this way with guys that I am just meeting, not my guy friends. I can see how at work or someplace like that it would seem more inappropriate though.

xxx

[Wobbles]

I have been close to two female friends in my adult life. Both were older than me, both were bisexual. Both i felt understood me, we became close, and i confused my feelings of closeness, being understood, supported and liked as sexual attraction. To the point where when i lost touch with them both, it hurt just as much as breaking up with a partner would. I have other females i now would consider friends, but we're not close, i've not allowed closeness, but also because there is not that 'click' with them. There is no sexual attraction, so i think i've equated that with them not being 'right' for me to be close to. It's weird, unless i feel sexual attraction, i don't bother with them. Yet i'm not gay, my affections toward someone get skewed and i end up feeling infatuated with them, and idealizing them, to where i'm even jealous if they see other friends.

Same with males also, unless there is a sexual attraction, i don't bother with them. And i always end up having wonderfully sexual fantasies about these people, both male and female. I'm worried i'll never be able to feel close to someone, feel love for them as a friend without there being the sexual side effect.

And i have no proof or proper recollection of any sexual abuse, only a 'feeling' and suspicion.

Hullo wobbley person

I think this is a bit different, though it still sounds like it makes you feel lonely When you were little, did anyone make you feel fearful of ever being seen as gay? Like make a big deal out of being homophobic? My dad was a massive homophobe. Were your family at all prudish, or perhaps even a bit lax with sexual boundaries?

With my mum I guess I felt she talked about her "sexual needs" a bit too much (which some might term a form of "covert sexual abuse"), but at the same time would seem a prude if sex came on telly.

LOL that made me chuckle.

Well, sex was not something that was EVER talked about. Definite prudishness was rife. I never got the birds and bees talked, never got the 'all girls get periods and this is normal etc' talk, and when i was 10 and asked what puberty was, i was treated as though i'd just said the big bad F word and needed to be punished.

As a teenager i was thought of as gay, but mostly because i was very bloke-ish, looked like a bloke and acted like a bloke. I don't remember much homophobia, my dad had a couple of gay friends, however, it seemed obvious that my mother didn't approve. And then, just to make hr smile, my sister turned out gay.

I don't know that anyone made me fearful of ever being gay, to be honest, i don't remember enough. All i know is that as i've grown bigger i've become more and more confused about the sexy stuff. Like being friends with a female, and being able to be close to them, there must be a sexual attraction. That's a bit fucked up really.

Ooh i just had a memory, a flashback.... very uncomfortable....involves a woman being sexually inappropriate with me because she thought i was a boy, or at least that is how i rationalised it at the time....i was 11.

Anyway...... from reading your reply to Ave, i would say at some point in your life, the lines were crossed and so confusion was instilled in you. That any attention you are given is automatically a sexual thing. That it is an unconscious thing, and something you should talk to your T about if it's something that bothers you.

To be honest, if you got a stiffy whilst talking to me, i'd be rather flattered LOL sorry

[hummm_mabbe]

I don't really go out unless I am socializing, so I guess I am not totally sure then. I think it is similar though, because I am feeling this way with guys that I am just meeting, not my guy friends. I can see how at work or someplace like that it would seem more inappropriate though.

xxx

Does it make you feel guilty? I guess that would make it similar

I dunno if this has a lot to do with societal values about sex for me. My feelings (which may not reflect reality) are that male sexuality is seen in many ways as a 'bad' thing. Like its aggressive, 'taking from' rather than 'giving to'. I feel like its seen as an act of aggression as opposed to an act of love when a man does it, but not when a woman does. "Men are perverts and users" and "women are liberated and sensuous". Thats what this voice somehwre inside seems to say to me

For me I see on the front of papers lots of pictures of female sexuality, its something thats very open and clear and valued (others of course may see it as exploitative and mean), but male sexuality in the papers is more about paedophiles, rapists, stars who cant control themselves and are attacked because of it (like Russell Brand). Maybe I have just absorbed the message that male sexuality is always bad, and female always good from my childhood, and now just look for it in the wider world. My mum and sister were rather man hating I sort of grew up being ashamed that I was even male!

Oh I dunno Im talking bull sheets.

[Roses]

The female form is put up on a pedestal, however if we have sex it is bad as we are a hussy. And Eve got us kicked out the garden of Eden with her 'lust' for the fruit.

[hummm_mabbe]

LOL that made me chuckle.

Well, sex was not something that was EVER talked about. Definite prudishness was rife. I never got the birds and bees talked, never got the 'all girls get periods and this is normal etc' talk, and when i was 10 and asked what puberty was, i was treated as though i'd just said the big bad F word and needed to be punished.

As a teenager i was thought of as gay, but mostly because i was very bloke-ish, looked like a bloke and acted like a bloke. I don't remember much homophobia, my dad had a couple of gay friends, however, it seemed obvious that my mother didn't approve. And then, just to make hr smile, my sister turned out gay.

I don't know that anyone made me fearful of ever being gay, to be honest, i don't remember enough. All i know is that as i've grown bigger i've become more and more confused about the sexy stuff. Like being friends with a female, and being able to be close to them, there must be a sexual attraction. That's a bit fucked up really.

Ooh i just had a memory, a flashback.... very uncomfortable....involves a woman being sexually inappropriate with me because she thought i was a boy, or at least that is how i rationalised it at the time....i was 11.

Anyway...... from reading your reply to Ave, i would say at some point in your life, the lines were crossed and so confusion was instilled in you. That any attention you are given is automatically a sexual thing. That it is an unconscious thing, and something you should talk to your T about if it's something that bothers you.

To be honest, if you got a stiffy whilst talking to me, i'd be rather flattered LOL sorry

ZOMG noo there are no stiffies! Only a little zing - like the dog incident thing I was describing! **blush**

I think youre right about the crossed wires. There are a few things, I mean there was little real closeness in my family. Physical affection was kind of stilted and not done past a certain age, so my first real sensation of human closeness was puberty and sexual feelings. Maybe without a 'file' for human closeness, 'sexuality' became the proxy and so thats what I confuse it with.

I was made to feel disgusting for having sexual feelings really, like I was some sickening pervert. My sexuality sort of got either ignored or trampled on and it has a huge amount of guilt and shame around it, yet it was the only thing that soothed me or made my anxiety go away. I guess thats when it got addictive and sort of twisted

I have tried to talk about it with my T in the past but it has got a bit sidelined in the melee. I emailed her today about it, hence feeling brave enough to bring it up here. I know sex is good and normal and stuff, I just would like to have it in its healthy place and attached to real love and things, rather than this sort of odd freeform all-encompassingness that it seems to have now.

[hummm_mabbe]

The female form is put up on a pedestal, however if we have sex it is bad as we are a hussy. And Eve got us kicked out the garden of Eden with her 'lust' for the fruit.

Yes i can see that side of it too ... its like a societal double standard really. I mean, do you get more hassle about being a "hussy" from other women than men? I guess I have heard men call women similar things, but it seemed to come along more if the guy was feeling jealous or just trying to be generally derogatory. Like some men will say that certain female stars are like that, but really they are jealous because they havent had sex with them yet....

Does it tend to be more other women that are genuinely judgemental of "hussiness" than it is men? Or does that old double standard of men being playboys and women being hussies still remain?

I have been through obsessive sexual times where I feel like I have to pull all the time. Like becayse its the only way I feel close, but also it makes me feel safe and valued. I get obsessive about it and people see me as wanting to be a player, but its a real need for release. Sex is the one thing that totally takes away that anxiety and pain - its like a drug I tend to get loved up and want to be with them all the time super easy :wub:

[Wobbles]

LOL that made me chuckle.

Well, sex was not something that was EVER talked about. Definite prudishness was rife. I never got the birds and bees talked, never got the 'all girls get periods and this is normal etc' talk, and when i was 10 and asked what puberty was, i was treated as though i'd just said the big bad F word and needed to be punished.

As a teenager i was thought of as gay, but mostly because i was very bloke-ish, looked like a bloke and acted like a bloke. I don't remember much homophobia, my dad had a couple of gay friends, however, it seemed obvious that my mother didn't approve. And then, just to make hr smile, my sister turned out gay.

I don't know that anyone made me fearful of ever being gay, to be honest, i don't remember enough. All i know is that as i've grown bigger i've become more and more confused about the sexy stuff. Like being friends with a female, and being able to be close to them, there must be a sexual attraction. That's a bit fucked up really.

Ooh i just had a memory, a flashback.... very uncomfortable....involves a woman being sexually inappropriate with me because she thought i was a boy, or at least that is how i rationalised it at the time....i was 11.

Anyway...... from reading your reply to Ave, i would say at some point in your life, the lines were crossed and so confusion was instilled in you. That any attention you are given is automatically a sexual thing. That it is an unconscious thing, and something you should talk to your T about if it's something that bothers you.

To be honest, if you got a stiffy whilst talking to me, i'd be rather flattered LOL sorry

ZOMG noo there are no stiffies! Only a little zing - like the dog incident thing I was describing! **blush**

I think youre right about the crossed wires. There are a few things, I mean there was little real closeness in my family. Physical affection was kind of stilted and not done past a certain age, so my first real sensation of human closeness was puberty and sexual feelings. Maybe without a 'file' for human closeness, 'sexuality' became the proxy and so thats what I confuse it with.

I was made to feel disgusting for having sexual feelings really, like I was some sickening pervert. My sexuality sort of got either ignored or trampled on and it has a huge amount of guilt and shame around it, yet it was the only thing that soothed me or made my anxiety go away. I guess thats when it got addictive and sort of twisted

I have tried to talk about it with my T in the past but it has got a bit sidelined in the melee. I emailed her today about it, hence feeling brave enough to bring it up here. I know sex is good and normal and stuff, I just would like to have it in its healthy place and attached to real love and things, rather than this sort of odd freeform all-encompassingness that it seems to have now.

And you wonder why you feel so bad, guilty, dirty etc for having this reaction? Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

Along similar lines to Lance's recent post, about being paranoid and overly self conscious about what other people might be thinking about him, when he's not really thinking about that stuff, he ends up thinking about it, drawing attention to himself and worrying all over again.

I think this is similar.

You're self conscious about this arousal, your awareness of it is heightened, because it worries you, you were taught to feel disgusting, wrong, naughty, sick, shame and guilt around sexual feelings, you're now hypersensitive about it, which in turn is feeding the beast.

I wonder what would happen if you practiced ignoring it?

Or perhaps, acknowledging it, without paranoia and guilt, talk to it (the problem, not your man bits) as if it's a child that needs reassurance, accepted that it's happening, rationalising that whilst it might not be normal, it's not the end of the world, telling it that it's not useful or helpful and see what reaction there is?

[hummm_mabbe]

I have given that a go, the place it seems to be most difficult is when making eye contact. I feel like they can see it! I know, silly. I have been trying to see it for what it is.

Actually the place its becoming difficult is therapy, because my T is very attractive. I have told her I feel that in the past because i know honesty is important, but its still something that comes up. I feel like she could see it, and think OH MY GOD PERVERT, or just OHAHA AS IF.

That same feeling of being laughed at, punished or humiliated comes up when contemplating romance or saying hello to a lady person too ... its really annoying, but I think youre right, getting it into the open is the right start. I need to stop feeling abnormal and vile and see it as a lovely blossom of frutiness

:ph34r:

[walker]

I was made to feel disgusting for having sexual feelings really, like I was some sickening pervert. My sexuality sort of got either ignored or trampled on and it has a huge amount of guilt and shame around it, yet it was the only thing that soothed me or made my anxiety go away. I guess thats when it got addictive and sort of twisted

yes yes

leaving me v v confused ashamed and frightened

get very unsure about feelings for others, esp men, v insecure

[hummm_mabbe]

I was made to feel disgusting for having sexual feelings really, like I was some sickening pervert. My sexuality sort of got either ignored or trampled on and it has a huge amount of guilt and shame around it, yet it was the only thing that soothed me or made my anxiety go away. I guess thats when it got addictive and sort of twisted

yes yes

leaving me v v confused ashamed and frightened

get very unsure about feelings for others, esp men, v insecure

Yes its horrid - its just another thing that keeps that separation and 'apartness'.

[angel tears]

I have sexual problems but in a different way, when i am in a relationship i just cannot get enough of sex at all, maybe 3 or 4 times a day and it is difficult to find a partner to meet my needs, how embarrasing. I maybe confuse sex with being close and really loved??, i crave it and i cant relax without it, it can be a problem sometimes as i get strong sexual urges often at the wrong times, then i become cranky and moody lol, i am over-sexed i would say lol xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Angel

Yes thats what I have in relationships too, I just want to stay in bed all day! And yes I get cranky and annoyed if I cant get it ... I think youre right, its about wanting something else like love and closeness, but it seems like that is the only thing somehow or its not safe to open up and ask for the things you really want. Its interesting to see that you identify with the overcompensation stuff too (in the other thread), it makes me wonder if this is something particulary that people who overcompensate / counterattack their problems do, use the sexamiffic things to try to fill needs?

This may be wayyy too personal, so you dont have to answer if you dont want ... Do you ever feel a bit empty after sex? Like, obviously having it is great, but when its finished do you ever think "oh now I feel oddly poop", like somehow it didnt quite fulfil what you were after? That happens for me, I guess its a bit like really wanting a roast dinner, and you have a bar of chocolate instead - the choc is nice but doesnt give you all the nice nutrients and veggies you really needed?

[AndyL]

Jeeze, Ross, is it possible that you could ever be boring? I figure once you do figure out how to have a healthy relationship, your partner could never accuse you of that. You'll fascinate her endlessly.

Interestingly enough, the sexual arousal/self disgust thing actually happens to me and I'm in a relationship. And a healthy one at that.

I am all over my fiancée, especially in the morning after our shower when we're dressing (man, I'm getting worked up just writing about it). She actually really likes it, so you'd think I'd be okay, right? Well, of course not. She tends not to reciprocate with the kind of enthusiasm I show--and want!--which I find embarrassing and humiliating for no reason whatsoever. I interpret her behavior as rejection and vow not to touch her at all in the morning. Recognize the black-and-white thinking?

This, of course, snowballs into her feeling rejected and we spend the entire morning talking about it instead of having fun being playful with each other.

Sigh.

I'm really trying, and so is she, but the fact is I want her to look at me and spontaneously grab me or something. She almost never does, so I back off, feeling like I'm a fool, disgusted with myself. And there we go again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I don't know how we're going to resolve this, because I actually need this. Maybe it's not healthy. Maybe I need it as a validation that she's attracted to me, even though I know she is, since she tells me all the time. Maybe she's just not a morning person in that respect. Doesn't matter. Even these days it's starting to happen again and I know what my response will be. That disgusts me right now!

One more thing to bring up in therapy, I guess. :lol:

[hummm_mabbe]

Jeeze, Ross, is it possible that you could ever be boring? I figure once you do figure out how to have a healthy relationship, your partner could never accuse you of that. You'll fascinate her endlessly.

Interestingly enough, the sexual arousal/self disgust thing actually happens to me and I'm in a relationship. And a healthy one at that.

I am all over my fiancée, especially in the morning after our shower when we're dressing (man, I'm getting worked up just writing about it). She actually really likes it, so you'd think I'd be okay, right? Well, of course not. She tends not to reciprocate with the kind of enthusiasm I show--and want!--which I find embarrassing and humiliating for no reason whatsoever. I interpret her behavior as rejection and vow not to touch her at all in the morning. Recognize the black-and-white thinking?

This, of course, snowballs into her feeling rejected and we spend the entire morning talking about it instead of having fun being playful with each other.

Sigh.

I'm really trying, and so is she, but the fact is I want her to look at me and spontaneously grab me or something. She almost never does, so I back off, feeling like I'm a fool, disgusted with myself. And there we go again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I don't know how we're going to resolve this, because I actually need this. Maybe it's not healthy. Maybe I need it as a validation that she's attracted to me, even though I know she is, since she tells me all the time. Maybe she's just not a morning person in that respect. Doesn't matter. Even these days it's starting to happen again and I know what my response will be. That disgusts me right now!

One more thing to bring up in therapy, I guess.

Hi Andy

Lol no to be truthful, Ive never been accused of being boring by a girlfriend - plenty of other things, but not that! Ive always felt I am boring though, so I dunno mabbe I overcompensate for feeling boring by trying to be neurotic as all hell

That pattern of being with someone who does not seem to reciprocate, I went through that with my last girlfriend, and the more she pulled away the more obsessive I got. Apparently its due to my emotional deprivation schema, and when i read the book and it described how people feel when they have it, the past they have had and the kind of partners they end up with, it fit exactly. Amazingly even though I subconsciously felt generally in life that I could not get what I wanted emotionally (which seemed to come up as a feeling of emptiness or that I will always be alone, as opposed to an awareness of feeling I couldnt get what I want), I chose someone who was physically / sexually distant, and that is apparently exactly what the schema does I know that blue balls / cold shoulder feeling all to well! I know not everyone is into the schema stuff though

[angel tears]

Hi Ross

I dont mind answering your question. To be honest i have my needs met whenever i have them (lucky me) but yes i guess sometimes i still do have an empty feeling inside me because even though maybe the sex was great and plentiful i still long for the love and comfort that i am seeking. I feel like a sponge, i could endlessly suck up love and comfort but i need more and more. I love cuddles and kisses too and i hate to roll over and sleep, i could stay in bed forever too.

It is so hard to get what i need, i think that the sex gets confused with love and affection sometimes for me and i crave it so badly, it is such a strong desire to be so close to my bf, i have to have it!!!! xxxxx

[angel tears]

I'm really trying, and so is she, but the fact is I want her to look at me and spontaneously grab me or something. She almost never does, so I back off, feeling like I'm a fool, disgusted with myself. And there we go again. Wash, rinse, repeat.

I could have written that Andy, i feel exactly the same and it doesnt happen to me either xxxx

[AndyL]

Maybe it's a difference in the level of intensity of feeling. Most people with BPD are emotionally vulnerable people and tend to feel emotions much more strongly than the general populace. Love, lust, whatever.