Fairness (or Lack Of It)

[AndyL]

I just about hijacked another thread with this. Thought I'd throw this on and see what you all think. It certainly gets my goat, although, in the interests of full disclosure, I was raised by a militant feminist lesbian. And, having been taught throughout my childhood that mean are the evil who walk the earth (it took years for me to realize that there are women who actually like men), may be a tad too sensitive.

Now to the topic. People's response to abuse speaks to a fundamental issue between society's responses to angry men vs. angry women. When one has BPD, that person is prone to angry rages, sometimes called tantrums. The way society looks at this is that if it's a woman, she's a bitch; if it's a man, he's an abuser. Same behavior, different responses typically. It's why BPD goes underreported in men: many of them end up in jail. Men, ostensibly, are more dangerous because they're stronger than women, so society has a much more alarmed reaction when men misbehave.

This, if you think about it, is sexist on both ends. It's sexist to men in the sense that the knee-jerk response to serious anger and violent behavior in men in domestic situations is to call it domestic violence and lock 'em up. Or otherwise take them out of the arena, to keep people safe. The response to women is to not take their anger very seriously which, of course, frustrates them even more and sometimes causes the behavior to escalate. Men don't like to report when they've been smacked around to avoid appearing weak, which exacerbates the whole situation.

Now, don't get me wrong, I'm not offering this as an excuse for the violent behavior many times displayed by men with BPD. I'm merely taking an extreme example as an illustration for how the public responds to the same symptoms displayed by both genders in an attempt to set things in context. I exaggerate to make a point. This does not exonerate negative behavior in men, nor do I condone those actions (which, I guess, amount the same thing).

I just wanted to take the opportunity to point out to the community here that calling it abuse when a man rages but is remorseful and seeking help, but giving hugs to a woman doing the very same thing, is not fair. I see this all the time here, at least where women are concerned, and it makes me, frankly, a tad bilious (being a man and all).

Am I off base? Abuse is abuse, isn't it? Shouldn't we, men and women, take responsibility for it?

(Arghh! my mother! I understand the issues that drive feminism better than most men, but I'm also hyper-sensitive to the double standards that are also directed to men (would that be called masculinism?))

[AveMaria]

I can see this issue from a few different viewpoints. About the way men with bpd and women with bpd are treated, I think it is unfair to both, and would be hard to necessarily say the unfair way men are treated is worse than the unfair way women are treated. But, in regards to specifically the issue of anger and aggression traits from bpd and men being discriminated against, I totally agree. It happens just in general with domestic violence though. This happened to one of my best friend, who is a guy in his last relationship. Right after he broke up with his girlfriend, she attacked my guy friend, he called the police on her, but then had to defend himself while waiting for them to arrive. When they came, he got arrested and charged with a couple felonies, while she got help for being a victim of domestic violence. Luckily, when it went to trial the truth came out, but it certainly wasn't fair for my friend to almost get a felony and have to sit in jail for quite awhile just based on the assumption that in a fight, it is always the man being abusive and the woman needs to be saved. I think sometimes, especially in cases of mental health issues where a lot of the time more is going on, it is more of a gray area. The truth is, when I go crazy... I don't really scare my fiance, he just gets annoyed that he has to deal with me again... and that he has to try to disarm me without hurting me. If he went crazy, I would be scared and he could easily really hurt someone. But, I do agree if I actually did hurt someone, I would need to take responsibility and that some women are stronger and more dangerous than some guys... so even that isn't clear cut. Lol... honestly in case you couldn't tell I can never totally make up my mind on all the different facets of this issue!

xxx

[hummm_mabbe]

I grew up hating the fact I was a man too, and like you Andy feel like im surprised that women might actually like men! I always think they will only like them if they are amazingly good looking, rich or powerful - but thats because of how mumsy deaerest tended to divide the gender up. Happily I do come across healthy attitudes, but my old paranoia and deep felt shame of having testosterone / a johnson does haunt me regularly. I feel like I am some shameful sicko for even looking at someone pretty. Sigh.

I dont knwo about the male abuse thing ... for me, I have only very rarely physically acted out and that was to men who were already physically attacking me so it was self defence. In relationships I have tended to verbally rage and the girl just walks away from me - I guess I know what its like to be on the receiving end of physical abuse and so Ive gone the other way or something. God I hope that didnt sound judgemental, thats not what I meant, I guess I have had the feelings of rage but something has always stopped it short, more out of luck, but I have certainly let my feelings be known by rantiness.

I guess on here its especially hard because there are a lot of people that have been physically or sexually abused, and statistically (although I know that there are many sad excpetions to the rule) it tends to be fathers or other males that have committed the abuse. That means when issues of it come up on here, those that have been hurt by men are going to react strongly to it simply because they identify with the feeling. As you know, when something triggers one of your sensitivities, its very hard to be objective and I think this issue is a real tinderbox. Im not trying to justify or condone, Im trying to understand the root of why it happens -_-

[AndyL]

I hadn't even thought of child abuse, and frankly forgot how many folks here have been sexually assaulted. That is a lapse on my part and I should really know better. I'll try to be mindful of that in the future.

That said, I stand by what I've written.

As for abuse by women upon men, it happened to me. My wife at the time, in the middle of a flurry of fists directed at me, hit me so hard it split my lip. I so desperately didn't want to hurt her, paranoid as I was about it somehow ending up in court (wasn't being rational, but hey, she was pounding on me). Nevertheless, she did back down when I'd finally had enough, cocked my fist at her and told her it had to stop. But my mouth was bleeding for a while. I never called the police about it, though. Like many victims of domestic abuse, I thought I somehow deserved it. Weird, huh? But true.

[Shellybelly]

andy you never deserve to be hit and it is abuse im sorry you had to go thru that. i also think it unfair how men get

treated differently to women we should all be treated the same and it gets on my nerves

[Ocean Wolf]

Honestly, I must say I am very hurt by what you said on the thread you hijacked. Everyone on that thread agress that abuse is abuse no matter what gender. Despite this, you assumed that since are women talking to a man, that we are part of this problem.

I, as a girl, have been abused by my dad. I'm not saying that because he is a man, but because he was abusive. Please don't belittle that. I've never belittled your mom's abuse of you.

I, as a woman, have been abusive. I have participated in an enger management class with other abusive women. When I have stated that I have been abusive, no one here has molly coddled me about it. (Thank goodness!) Actually, you're the first to suggest it.

I agree with you about the hardcore feminist stuff. I probably have other things I don't like about it as well (like how they seem to be against anything feminin). Anyway, I agree with you on that. I think those ones are totally sexist.

Here's another possibly sexist thing in this very thread (or the other one). Why did you assume that gender was even an issue in that thread? Is it because we're women talking to a man? Is it because you think we're all like your mother? Why did you make such a hurtful assumption?

What made you think that there was even one person in that thread who considered gender an issue? Other than you, I mean.

[Crocus]

It's strange because I always assumed that if I a woman abused a man I would be arrested and locked up just the same as a man, I've not known any woman to be abusive to a man in my world/rl so not had experience of how they are treated. I guess I have to just take your word for it.

[S1CKK]

I grew up hating the fact I was a man too, and like you Andy feel like im surprised that women might actually like men! I always think they will only like them if they are amazingly good looking, rich or powerful - but thats because of how mumsy deaerest tended to divide the gender up. Happily I do come across healthy attitudes, but my old paranoia and deep felt shame of having testosterone / a johnson does haunt me regularly. I feel like I am some shameful sicko for even looking at someone pretty. Sigh.

I can sooo relate to that hummm_mabbe. I still hate myself for that. Don't get me wrong I like being a man but I always feel like I have to compensate for all the crimses, abuse, rapes commitet by men. I am getting a little bit better now though. For instance, I allow myself to stare at one really hot check per day .

I am not evil because I am looking at something pretty. God my self-loathing used to be soo bad, I used to sabotage every relationship right from the beginning....meaning I usually don't make it past the first encounter. I used to hate myself so much I just couldn't allow someone else to love me....even though I want that so badly.

I am working on it though and I am getting a lot better. I should love myself. I am not ugly, just a bit short..like Richard Hammond , I am awesome at what I do and I am a perfectionist.....uh and I do keep my a appartment clean (bathroom). That's very rare with guys. Most of them are pigs....that's just true

I agree with you Ocean. I personally, like two years ago, came to the conclusion that everyone, society, is getting seriously worked up over gender issues.

I don't take it so seriously anymore.

[AndyL]

Honestly, I must say I am very hurt by what you said on the thread you hijacked. Everyone on that thread agress that abuse is abuse no matter what gender. Despite this, you assumed that since are women talking to a man, that we are part of this problem.

You've missed my point and taken a general statement as an attack on yourself and all women.

I supplied a little personal history to set a context for my thinking. But my story does not make my statements any less valid. Much of what I say is backed up by studies that have concluded that the reason that BPD men are under-diagnosed--hence the statistic that there are fewer male sufferers of the disorder than female--is that men are more likely to end up jail.

I merely extrapolated that to the discussion at hand, where I saw the word abuse being directed at the original poster, who is male. I never see that used for women. Admitting that you have abused is one thing, and I'm not minimizing that. But if you're a woman you're more likely to get hugs and support. This typically doesn't happen to men, and I've noticed it in the population here. Which makes a certain amount of sense since we're all part of a larger society. My goal was to draw attention to that. If you look at what I wrote, you'll notice I wasn't making a judgment against anyone, merely pointing out what I perceive as an injustice and saying why.

And finally, I am in complete agreement with the basic tenets of feminism because it, like all human rights issues, boils down to one thing: choice. So while I disagreed with my mother's militance and repugnantly aggressive, prejudiced biases, she was right about one thing: we all (and, consistent with her focus, by "all" she meant women) deserve basic, inalienable, human rights. We all should be treated as equals and consequences should be based on our behavior and actions, not on our gender, the color of our skin, socioeconomic status, etc.

Thank you, Thomas Jefferson and Martin L. King!

[Roses]

There is a difference between feminism and equal rights. I believe in equal rights for all. I'm sorry you feel that men are persecuted/misdiagnosed/labelled. Did you know that rape within marriage was only recognised as a crime in the mid 1980's? There are a lot of ways in which we all suffer from sexual steretyping and I think that it is a very painful subject for a lot of people, including myself as I had a Mother who was an abuser. It is more common than people think it's just that they don't talk about it as you feel more guilty when it is your Mother as she is stereotypically the nurturer. Women don't get hugs and kisses for it - other people just don't find out.

[AndyL]

There is a difference between feminism and equal rights.

No there isn't. Feminism is all about equal rights--for women. I recommend The Feminine Mystique by Betty Friedan as a good starting point to understand the basic complaint and for insight into how the movement began. See this for more information about equal rights for women.

Any woman--ANY woman--should know this stuff. Men too. Women and girls today are recipients of the gift their mothers and grandmothers (figuratively speaking, of course) fought for. The fact that this fight isn't as relevant these days means they largely won.

Actually, if you want to really see how women were treated in the workplace back in the 60s just as the movement was beginning to take shape, watch Madmen. It's cringingly accurate. They miss no details. And it's a really great show, too.

[AndyL]

Women don't get hugs and kisses for it - other people just don't find out.

It happens on this very board all the time. One woman even took a knife to her boyfriend (she didn't connect) and instead of calling her an abuser or an attempted murderer or something, the community gently chided her that she shouldn't do that again and was extremely sympathetic to her emotional state. Jeeze, I think even I took part in that! If a man did that he would receive no such sympathy I am convinced. (But I am willing to be unconvinced.)

Look, all I'm saying is let's give the men here a break, okay? Borderline Personality Disorder is a serious mental illness. This is a support board for BPD. People of both sexes share the same symptoms and the same behaviors. I'm just asking the question, why are men "abusers" and women not if they share the same behavior and take responsibility for it? And for the life of me, Roses, I can't figure out where rape in marriage fits into this.

[jenga]

Both men and women are individually stereotyped by the larger group they belong too. In fact, the same is true with most sectors of society. The deciding factor as to who gets the "bad rap" most often, has to do with things like strength, and history, and even the media.

Unfortunately, there are members of each group, and society components as well, that perpetuate these stereotypes and make it harder for the others to remain unjudged. My goodness, here it is 2009 and look at what we still see on television. What we need is for the members of these groups to speak against the injustices done by the others to their identities, and yes, make efforts to prove them wrong. I could point out specifics where people do this publicly all of the time, but I don't want to get in trouble here!

I think that most people would agree that everyone should be looked at individually, and treated the same as well. But that's not the reality of it right now. To make changes, it needs to start at the roots. We cannot rewrite history or change the individual natures of people, and erasing all biases and preconceived assumptions is not an easy thing to do! Like so many things, it starts with parenting that teaches what we see as human rights and responsibilities... Bringing children into the world who have empathy, common sense, kindness, and open hearts and minds.

(And just to clarify, this post just is what it is. No reference to anyone here, or anything said here at all. Just my

take on this!)

[jenga]

Ok, I have to say one thing to Andy's last post, which has nothing to do with this thread.

I heart Madmen. And I enjoy the guilty pleasure of being madly in love with John Hamm. He can place those wonderful hands on me anytime and anywhere he wants, regardless of how many other women he's doing it to as well. :)

[AndyL]

Both men and women are individually stereotyped by the larger group they belong too. In fact, the same is true with most sectors of society. The deciding factor as to who gets the "bad rap" most often, has to do with things like strength, and history, and even the media.

Unfortunately, there are members of each group, and society components as well, that perpetuate these stereotypes and make it harder for the others to remain unjudged. My goodness, here it is 2009 and look at what we still see on television. What we need is for the members of these groups to speak against the injustices done by the others to their identities, and yes, make efforts to prove them wrong. I could point out specifics where people do this publicly all of the time, but I don't want to get in trouble here!

I think that most people would agree that everyone should be looked at individually, and treated the same as well. But that's not the reality of it right now. To make changes, it needs to start at the roots. We cannot rewrite history or change the individual natures of people, and erasing all biases and preconceived assumptions is not an easy thing to do! Like so many things, it starts with parenting that teaches what we see as human rights and responsibilities... Bringing children into the world who have empathy, common sense, kindness, and open hearts and minds.

(And just to clarify, this post just is what it is. No reference to anyone here, or anything said here at all. Just my

take on this!)

Very well thought out and I agree completely. But why not start here?

[AndyL]

Ok, I have to say one thing to Andy's last post, which has nothing to do with this thread.

I heart Madmen. And I enjoy the guilty pleasure of being madly in love with John Hamm. He can place those wonderful hands on me anytime and anywhere he wants, regardless of how many other women he's doing it to as well.

Same for me with January Jones. The one thing I can't figure out on this show is what man would cheat on a smokin' hot wife like that? If it were me, she wouldn't get any rest at all.

[Crocus]

But was your comment not sterotyping in itself? Not all of us molly coddle women abusers - as many of us here have pointed out! Yes maybe there are SOME on here that do, men and women alike - but not all of us!

[Roses]

I think I'm not sure myself where rape in marriage fits in Andy. Think I was trying to say that some things that we think have changed actually haven't til a long time after (if that makes any sense). It appears we have a difference in opinion. In my mind equal rights means just that whereas the only 'feminist' females I have had contact with always seem to think they are better than men. This could just be that I have had bad examples of that. But I stand by the statement that people are more reluctant to resport abuse by their Mothers because it is seen as bad to find fault with the all-knowing one. Again, just my experience. But remember your post is just based on your experiences so who is right????

[hummm_mabbe]

Men smell like biscuits and women smell of flowers

Love from Prof Ross Mabbe

[Wobbles]

Men smell like biscuits and women smell of flowers

Love from Prof Ross Mabbe

Actually, according to a recent study, men of over a particular age smell of chip fat/oil.

[hummm_mabbe]

Actually, according to a recent study, men of over a particular age smell of chip fat/oil.

OMG thats true

I am changing in smell as Im aging too

:(

[jenga]

/beer.

[Roses]

LOL guys. Men of a certain age actually smell like Kouros aftershave I think....

[hummm_mabbe]

Old women smell of hob nobs and lavender

(I dunno why I have a biscuit obsession, sorry)

Umm, this is so a thread-jack

Mmmm jaffa cakes

[Crocus]

I just smell of BO