Forgiveness

[AndyL]

Not sure if I actually have a coherent thought here, but I thought I'd ramble on a bit and see what happens.

One of the phenomena that happen as one gets older is distance from events earlier on in life. Life is in full flourish, middle age happens frighteningly fast, childhood traumas become less important. So for a while I've thought, maybe it's time to get down to the task of forgiving my parents.

For years I read Dear Abby religiously, and she always talked about it. I shrugged that off as advice columnist drivel until I started running into the concept in therapy. I was always told I need to forgive myself. Well I'm working on that. But, by extension, maybe that means forgiving the people close to me that have hurt me. Forgiveness means letting go of the bitterness and anger, the sense of entitlement I feel by knowing I was wronged as an innocent by nasty parents. And the consequence of forgiveness seems to be peace of mind, being able to get on with my life without letting my resentment and anger get in the way of things that are important right now. I think that's important.

Now don't get me wrong. Forgiving my parents--and I'm talking about you, Mom--doesn't mean I'm going to sit down at lunch with them and pretend nothing ever happened. Indeed, it doesn't mean having lunch at all. Forgiving my mother, for example, doesn't mean she's not a cruel overlord who would kill nuns given the chance. But it does mean that I'm not going to let the memory of what she did color my life and thinking.

So I'm done. Frankly, what happened happened, and there's no going back to correct it. And it happened so long ago, really, I can't be bothered with it. I'm not sure if that's forgiveness or indifference, but either way it amounts to the same thing: Ya done a bad thing, but I'm not going to let that eat me up. Have a nice life.

Now, you may think that's letting them off the hook, and maybe that's true to a certain extent. But I just don't have the desire or energy to punish anybody. And all that does anyway is lead to more negative feelings. Hatred takes stamina that I just don't have anymore. Too draining. I'd rather use that energy for more constructive purposes anyway.

Anyway, it's a thought I thought I'd put out there. Maybe Dear Abby was right. If life ultimately boils down to making the best of it (which I believe it does), then maybe forgiveness plays a part in not letting the fact of being wronged when you're at your most vulnerable wreck your life.

I love this song by Don Henley. Maybe it is the heart of the matter.

--------

PS - I'm not looking for support here--that's not my role on this board--I'm making the attempt to use my experience as a basis for discussion on ways we can overcome childhood trauma. I think forgiveness is a tool that is often downplayed because it seems too pat, or is too often misused by people who have no idea what the fuck they're taking about. However it's there, it's hard, you have to work on it. But I think it helps a lot. Any opinions?

[Roses]

Maybe we don't forgive (I don't think I ever can), but we can learn to accept what has happened and move on. I am determined not to let my abusers ruin my life.

[Dani]

I think its great that you are not going to waste your energy on it.

As roses said,sometimes it's letting go of what happened and accepting that it can't be changed which can enable us to move on.

I myself let go of a lot of anger and its helped me a lot...hope it helps you too.

xx

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Andy

Forigveness can happen, but the grieving process must happen first. It is just the same as if a criminal did something bad to you, say stole something precious to you - first you would have to find out the person who did it. Then you would have the shock that it has happened TO YOU. Then you would feel angry at the person, and vent that anger in the presence of people who care about you (in criminal proceedings, this stage may include justice). Then you will progress to a stage of grieving and acceptance, that whatever they did has happened. At that stage you can begin to integrate the loss into your life, and then move on - and at this stage is where forgiveness comes along. You cannot forgive until you understand what you are forigving - otherwise you are just SAYING you forgive while your heart knows otherwise, or perhaps the emotions will be replaced with numbness, sporadic depression, psychosis, outbursts of anger at random others etc ad infinitum.

In abuse and neglect, it is not apparent what has been lost or taken, and so you must understand this. You must understand what you had a right to expect, and did not get - and to become angry at it. To become angry at what it caused you to lose in life in terms of friends, relationships and so on. These are all losses attached to the original deed. Further losses are the ways in which those events have shaped you and your emotions, coping responses and feelings about you and the world - the legacy that has driven all the other losses. When you can see all these things, you will feel angry - and again you need someone who cares about you to vent that anger to. You need to get it out because left inside, it eats at you. Then after sadness, you may enter a new period of acceptance, and then integration, as the changes permeate through your life. At this stage, and now that the anger has been largely expended, you may come to see the weaknesses in your parents that caused them to behave as they did. In place of nager you may feel disappintment, and at this stage you can choose to forgive, and have it mean more because you are no longer just SAYING you forgive, but genuinely understand what you are forgiving. Even a devoutly christian friend of mine agreed with this outlook when we were discussing christian forgiveness.

A key difference in dealing with the past is that you dont HAVE TO have the "justice" part - you dont have to scream and shout at your parents, or have them a trial by emotions. You can do it all without even speaking to them, even if they are no longer on this planet. That I think is where a lot of people get confused - they think you have to actually punish your parents, and nothing could be more incorrect. Some are still driven by some distant hope that their parents will change and finally give them the love they felt was missing, and may believe that if they are punished, will "buckle under" and give them what they need. Accepting parents may not change is part of real acceptance, and at the same time it severs the need for approval and addresses fears of abandonment in current reality, because that buried longing dies.

Some people do just hang on to the "my parents are all to blame" thing - they get stuck in the anger stage. This is easy to do because the effects of abuse are so complex - we do not remember everything, parts of us still blame ourselves, we hear the voices of the past telling us we brought it on ourselves. For this reason, truly passing through the anger stage can take years - and that is why you see many people on this site talking about it, a lot. Getting through the anger stage is also getting through the stage where you begin to have genuine sympathy for the child you were, and so most importantly, stop blaming yourself for what happened at the gut level. As you know, self blame and the feeling of being bad or evil is core to BPD - and so reaching this stage is a milestone in overcoming the disorder.

Perhaps this has happened organically for you, or perhaps as you say you just no longer have the energy for it. This would be understandable if you have already undertaken years of therapy and feel worn out by it, and especially if by and large things have improved for you. For those that are going through the anger phase, its not that it drives their lives and they think about it all the time - its the fact that when you get to this stage of insight you cant HELP but see how their influence crops up in every aspect if life. Each time it crops up though, their hold over you is weakened. Seeing the link to the past is far from being a millstone that you wear round your neck every day - it is a gradual, piecemeal liberation. You may not believe this is necessary. You may be right - but it is certainly an effective and proven way of overcoming these disorders. Different things work for different people - what may seem frustrating or pointless to one, may be wonderful to another.

[AndyL]

Ross, I wholeheartedly agree with you. Apparently, you've reached this idea in a thoughtful and considered way, while I am grasping for the concept intuitively. I left out parts of the process you outlined, either for space considerations or because I just plain forgot. (There was a great bit about my dad I was dying to put in, and left out because it was wholly irrelevant.)

As it happened, the journey towards forgiveness did not happen entirely organically for me. I've done some (but not a whole lot of) therapy related to PTSD. I think it was largely helpful, particularly the one day(!) I spent doing it through psychodrama. And yes, I agree there's a difference between paying lip service to forgiveness and actually feeling it. Also though, the fact that I'm 46 and have suffered other traumas that seem much more immediate, and relevant to my life, influence how I feel about my abusers from when I was much younger. Just being on this earth for a while lends one a lot of perspective about what's important and what's not, particularly at my age, when you're considering your own mortality and realize that the days ahead are fewer than the days behind.

I know it sounds trite and condescending--I would have thought so at your age--but it's weird how getting older changes your worldview. The things that seemed so important when I was younger (even in my mid-30s) have far less impact these days. So when I'm weighing what's important vs what's far less so--say, my divorce or my son being nearly suicidal because of the horrible high school experience he's having vs. my mother killing rats with her teeth--then all of a sudden my plight of 40 years ago doesn't seem that big a deal. Maybe that's why BPD abates as people get older.

Mom, you crazy bitch, I forgive you. ;)

[Sammy]

I let go of the hatred because the hatred only hurt myself and the innocent people in my life rather than the abusers or persecutors. It just dragged out the suffering.

That's not to say I'm not affected by the actions of the abusers to this day, subconsiously in the way I behave and act or even the occasional flashbacks I still get or the decisions to keep my children safe away from my abusers, maybe even sometimes projecting things on to them and being a little over protective.

But as a whole, as a consious thought I try to just get on with my life and think about the positive things as oppose to the negative.

[walker]

i cant forgive them cos i dont think they did much

it was all me

wasnt abused

not like u guys

so what is there to forgive

they did their best to make it good

and i make it bad

fin

[AveMaria]

:hug2: Walker! I can relate to exactly what you said. I think that makes it harder though, I am trying to cut myself some slack... some days it works, usually not. You are a wonderful person and you deserved so much more.

xxx

[AveMaria]

You cannot forgive until you understand what you are forigving - otherwise you are just SAYING you forgive while your heart knows otherwise, or perhaps the emotions will be replaced with numbness, sporadic depression, psychosis, outbursts of anger at random others etc ad infinitum.

There was more that you said that I found helpful, Ross, but this was the part that totally resonated! That is what set off my this whole dive back into craziness these past few months. Its like some things are so painful to think about that I just thought I could forgo that part and go straight to forgiving people... obviously didn't work though. At least because of it all I found this forum!

Thanks for bringing this up Andy! I

xxx

[jades]

hey andy rock on u and i have the same thoughts on this matter i have alot of people that donr agree with me but with alot of meditation on the matter its what ive come to for my personal truth thanks for sharing it hugs xxxxxx

[Shelley]

I will never forgive my Father. Not all the time he/s still alive anyway. And I would spit on his grave.

[Shelley]

I have forgiven my Mum. Forgiven her for being up the pub every night, forgiven her for being a drunk, forgiven her being a slapper, (my Father worked abroad for 5 years) forgiven her for providing just a pot noodle for dinner every day, forgiven her for bringing round my Brother/s wedding video and playing It one week after I told her about the sexual abuse!, forgiven her for never being there.....ever when I needed her so bad, forgiven her for allowing me to be in danger from my brother, forgiven her for letting me live with my Father when they split up when I was 15. It/s taken a good few year/s though to get where we are now, but Im glad we have. She Is truly very sorry, and she was like she was after suffering year/s of abuse at the hand/s of my Father. I love my Mum. I love my Mum, I just wish she hadn/t been so blind.

[roxy222]

i think forgiveness is a feeling that can not and should not be forced. i think on the odd occassion that people realise what they have done and make genuine steps to amend the damage then they may earn forgiveness as that feeling is likely to automaticly spring forth is reaction, if they are genuine. but honestly v few abusers even tale responsibility for what they are let alone the damage they do. forcing forgiveness is like denying the seriousness of our feelings and their crimes. its a form of forced dissociation, and all that happens is that it contiues to widen the gap between our authetic selves and feelings. forgivness is a fake idea of the end of healing, but in reality when you get through the tough stuff you realise how irrelavant a concept it is. when you move on in life forgivenss no longer has a place. but if you force this feeling all that happens is the bitterness and unexpressed (rightous) anger build up underneath and create repetition compultions.

[AndyL]

I will never forgive my Father. Not all the time he/s still alive anyway. And I would spit on his grave.

I felt that way about my mother for a very long time. I used to say I'd dance on her grave when she died. Now, as time has gone by, I no longer really care. She seems to sense it: because she's her, she tried to dig at me by naming my ex-wife as executor of her estate. Now that's funny. And childish. And boring. My ex ain't too crazy about it either; it interferes with her repudiation-of-Andy master plan. Sorry, hon, both our kids look and act like me, and now my mother will call to you from beyond the grave!

[AndyL]

i cant forgive them cos i dont think they did much

it was all me

wasnt abused

not like u guys

so what is there to forgive

they did their best to make it good

and i make it bad

fin

Walker, your challenge, I think, is to go through a process whereby you can eventually forgive yourself. Self loathing will eat you up and spit you out.

[walker]

well i have tried to look at them and how they treated me

and at my brother

and non of it seems enough for me to hurt so much

the shutters seem to have come down and are saying tracy whatever happened - it is u who is at fault - u who made all the fuss

so it must be me

[Sammy]

I also believe that whilst carrying the hatred I was a lesser being than my abusers, filled with darkness, no success or love or happiness in my life, suffering, cursed almost, but when I learnt to let go of that and move on to a happier and more positive place in my life it raised me above them making me a better person than them. Now I can look at them as mere blemishes on the earth, small and insignifcant. Not that I actively think of them like that as that would suggest that I'm name calling thus angry still, whereas I'm not, only thought of that metaphor just now as I tried to define how insignificant they are in my life now and how above them I now feel.

[successful_workthru]

AndyL

I wish you the best, and am glad you have come to a place of forgiveness.

I think its a road, maybe you are at the point on the road, where you are ready to let go.

Your post was very coherent to me.

Maybe I, however, am not yet at that point, but that dosen't mean I wont get to it in the future.

Time does provide distance from events earlier in life, but my subconscious never forgets.

It is mirroring situations in the present, which are, somehow reflecting unresolved past bits. Trouble is, these bits, are as yet, buried out of sight in my conscious awareness.

I think the important bit is being ready to forgive.

I have tried forgiving before I am ready, but all I am doing is conning myself into thinking I have let go, when really there is still resentment there.

I have no problem with forgiving when a sincere apology and acknowledgement of wrongs, is forthcoming.

If there is none, then I have found, I let myself open to further hurts.

False forgiving is easier for me though, I use being nice, as a defense mechanism, but the resentment, I should have faced at the time, does not surface until later. This is because I am intimidated at the time, and the defense mechanism, of being nice to bastards is still kicking in.

This is nobodys fault though.

I think I let go of resentment when I have lightbulb moments.

For instance, if someone treats you mean, it's much easier to let go of resentments, when you realise that they treated you mean because of how they were feeling, and not just for the hell of it.

Until this realisation is felt, however, the resentment is still there for me.

There is no turning back time, but both an apology, and an appreciation of the fact that the cruelty was not about us go some way to lightening the resentment.

I have still some resenment left, but with further lightbulb moments, this should dissolve.

I cannot yet say how, as I have not had any more lightbulb moments, so have not felt any further empathy with those who have wronged me.

If someone does not apologise, there isn't much you can do, except prevent further hurt from the offenders. It's not a case of letting them off the hook. Letting them off the hook involves continuing interacting with them, as if nothing has happened.

I don't punish my parents, but I have cut off contact with them, so they have lost out. Even if this loss means something as little as the fact that they no longer have anyone to take out their shit on, it's still a loss.

[successful_workthru]

hummm_mabbe

What a wise, and insightful post.

thank you

[successful_workthru]

i cant forgive them cos i dont think they did much

it was all me

wasnt abused

not like u guys

so what is there to forgive

they did their best to make it good

and i make it bad

fin

No disrespect, but aren't you being overly negative toward yourself.

What happens to a person, is not their fault.

[successful_workthru]

i think forgiveness is a feeling that can not and should not be forced. i think on the odd occassion that people realise what they have done and make genuine steps to amend the damage then they may earn forgiveness as that feeling is likely to automaticly spring forth is reaction, if they are genuine. but honestly v few abusers even tale responsibility for what they are let alone the damage they do. forcing forgiveness is like denying the seriousness of our feelings and their crimes. its a form of forced dissociation, and all that happens is that it contiues to widen the gap between our authetic selves and feelings. forgivness is a fake idea of the end of healing, but in reality when you get through the tough stuff you realise how irrelavant a concept it is. when you move on in life forgivenss no longer has a place. but if you force this feeling all that happens is the bitterness and unexpressed (rightous) anger build up underneath and create repetition compultions.

That sums up what I was trying to say above.

cheers

[successful_workthru]

well i have tried to look at them and how they treated me

and at my brother

and non of it seems enough for me to hurt so much

the shutters seem to have come down and are saying tracy whatever happened - it is u who is at fault - u who made all the fuss

so it must be me

I look back at my history and feel that none of the treatment of me seems enough for me to hurt so much.

The thing is, the subconscious never lies.

If we feel it, there is something there.

I can empathise with you on this post because of how I feel about my own past.

In my conscious awareness, I see nothing in my past to warrant such extreme pain, and symptoms that are with me presently.

I will not make the mistake, however, of assuming nothing hurt me, and its my own imagination, because our conscious awareness, our conscious memory, does not always reflect our experiences.

If you don't mind me saying, for both of us, I think that the book by Alice Milller, entitled "The body never lies" (*) would be a very prudent thing to read. Google it, and have a look at an overview of it online.

Unfortunately, I am on a very low income, so am unable to accquire a copy, as all money currently goes on essentials, which seem to be rising in price.

This book goes some way to making us more aware of the mind-body connection.

We gain more self-insight.

Because of this, we gain the much needed validation, which will rid us both of our erroneous "It's my fault" attitude.

Ridding ourselves of this attitude will bring so much relief, but to do so, first we need the insight into ourselves.

(*)(this forum pointed me in the direction of this book)

[AndyL]

Well of course there's a topic on forgiveness right on this very board. I like the idea that it's a process because, of course, I agree with that. :)

[angel tears]

Hi

I find the subject of forgiveness a very interesting post and it has certainly given me something to think about, i am known as the great thinker lol . I have found personally that over the years my anger towards my parents has subsided and it no longer continues to eat me up. Yes sometimes i still feel hurt etc that for some reason they took their shit out on me and not my brother or sister but now i have removed that chance for them because we no longer speak. I tried for years to get along with them after the physical abuse had stopped but the emotional abuse continued right up until three days ago. When the accused me of being an abuser just because i asked them to come to my wedding (long story) i realised that they have no idea about what they do and that i must stop contact because all of the old abandonment feelings and the hurt came back. Instead of their actions effecting me for months and months, after three days i have found a calmer place inside of me, my T said dont let what they have done to you ruin all of your progress and she is right.

I feel that i must have found some forgiveness inside of me to react in this way. I mean i was angry for around six years after i left home, it put me in hospital twice and i have never been the same since but i know that i still have a way to go because i still have some issues left to deal with like abandonement and dependancy but it is changing all of the time.

Maybe like you Andy i feel that i am tired of being angry and letting it eat me all up inside and i hope that i can find some peace within one day. Forgiveness takes time, we can forgive but we never forget. It is a very long process and can take years of our lives xxxx

[profound1]

Forgiveness doesn't seem to be an issue for me, not something that I am particularly concerned about, I am not in a place where I feel the need or desire to forgive my abusers.

I realise that I need to accept what has happened but although I know things did I am in a confused state flitting between denial, anger, pain shame etc... and the rest. It is as tho it happened to someone else most of the time, if I try to make sense of things, think about things, I dissociate or flashback. Most of my negative emotions are directed at myself, maybe I should think about forgiving myself, not sure what for, beating myself up maybe but it just seems so natural to hate myself etc..

I truly believe I need to work through all this before I can accept and move on. Maybe I am wrong but I blocked it out for a long time, didn't let it affect me, or so I thought. I hope more than anything that I get to where you are now Andy, not allowing my childhood to have such a huge impact on my present.