Forgiveness

[Tammy]

I haven't begun to even get close to let go of my rage towards my mom. I try not to think about it, she has ruined me and it takes so much energy to keep her out of me, keep myself from acting like her.

I think it kills me cause she never loved me to begin with. If you can't love ur child, give them to someone who can...Meeting their needs like housing etc, food...it isn't enough. We require so much more then that....I'll hate my mom forever, yet love her at the same time, or wished she'd love me....I'll probably cry when she dies, but not cause she's dead, but the fact that it will mean it's over, no further hope of her walking through a door one day and admitting what she's done. And i'm sure the tears will also be from pittying myself, what I never got, and never will have.

[AndyL]

This brings up an interesting question for me, Tammy. If your mother did walk in the door, admit she messed up with you and apologized, could you forgive her?

[Tammy]

Yup, of course, however, forgetting it all would be a different story. I have dreams 5 out of 7 nights usually, that I'm a child again, living w her, living daily in her chaos. I almost hate sleeping anymore.

*

I think I said that with too much ease...I think the fact I cannot forget hinders me from forgiving her, even if she did walk in the door and said I'm sorry yadda yadda....I think I'm so deseperate for that relationship with her, I'd pretend I didn't give a shit or I was forgiving her, but inside, down deep....it's just been too much, too many things she did to me, and way too many things she didn't do to me. I think the fact that I want or need that interaction so badly, to feel something....I'd ignore it all, while it ate me up on the inside. I think I wanna beat her ass like she did mine. I think I wanna seclude her in a room with no human interaction....control her, give her no freedom, and make her feel like nothing.....I want revenge. I want to see that she 'gets it', understands, has remorse...gets out of denial.

She has no idea I talk of her like this. She lives 2 hours from me, never visits, never calls, however she visits her mom and family 8 miles from me. I'm not included. She has no idea what she has done or what impact it has had. She has no idea of my Thearapy, my diagnosis, nothing, because she chooses to ignore me.

Last I talked to her was a year ago, I left ernie this time last last year and called her to tell her I moved. She was in alaska at the time, forgot the time differnce, and she bitched at me cause it was 4am there. Before that I hadn't talked to her in about another year or two.

So I retract my statement, I can never forgive her...I currently do my best not to think about it. My therapist is retarded, social security is even more retarded, and I'll get a new T in Sept. when my insurance starts. Maybe start again then on how to cope w this constructively.

*

And one more thing, why the FUCK is this all on me, why do I have to forgive her, why do I have to put all this energy into her when she put absolutely none into me. She deserves nothing. Not my forgiveness, not my compassion, nadda. I will work on me and how to cope with the thoughts, the dreams etc....learn to not let them bother me as they do. Fuck forgiving her, I think that would take way more energy then just learning to get over it, and deal with it best I can. Forgiving her wont help me....Forgetting her will. Accepting she will never be anything to me, nor do anything for me, even if it's just a phone call.

[catspiracy]

I do agree that forgiveness is not a voluntary act; it's a form of Grace that dawns on you when you step out of the Victims Consciousness.

In Victims Consciousness, one believes that things happen TO you. That you are flotsam on the tide of life, bashed this way or that according to the heaving chaotic tides. That all you can do is adjust your coping style and accept what the Universe dishes out. And there is a deep, organic truth to this egoistic state.

But sometimes, something happens to lead us into the Manifestor state of consciousness. Lol, maybe it was watching The Secret...maybe it was a mystical experience in the middle of the Nevada desert! Anyhow, suddenly you realize that everything has a purpose, that the Universe is Consciousness and that your thoughts and feelings MATTER, literally. They become MANIFEST.

So sometimes Forgiveness is gifted unto us, one of those random-scheduled-positive-reinforcements skinner was so crazy about!

And I suddenly see that wrapping my head around and forcing myself to mantra, "I am grateful to my daughter for challenging me to grow in compassion" forces me to forgive my father in the act of forgiving myself as a parent. We are such frail, frail things....human, alas, all too human! And my bout with drinking (I'm 1.5 weeks sober so far, yay!) also had a greater purpose....still more compassion for my drunken asshole father.

I can feel so much empathy for how he must have felt, staying home drunk for 30 years. How worthless, how impotent, how addled and demonic! How he could say Fuck All! My daughter brought a monster out of me that I had to face so that I could feel empathy, and then, Forgiveness swept its calm into my churning heart.

And then, you become so airy that you are uplifted into being Of Service to the Universe's Harmony, and you stop worrying about making anything manifest, you are too busy scurrying to try to attend to all of the Signs!

The final stage, I'm told, is Oneness with the Universe, true Enlightenment...

So that's how I experience forgiveness and how I feel it fits into life, the universe, and everything, so to speak.....

[roxy222]

Yup, of course, however, forgetting it all would be a different story. I have dreams 5 out of 7 nights usually, that I'm a child again, living w her, living daily in her chaos. I almost hate sleeping anymore.

*

I think I said that with too much ease...I think the fact I cannot forget hinders me from forgiving her, even if she did walk in the door and said I'm sorry yadda yadda....I think I'm so deseperate for that relationship with her, I'd pretend I didn't give a shit or I was forgiving her, but inside, down deep....it's just been too much, too many things she did to me, and way too many things she didn't do to me. I think the fact that I want or need that interaction so badly, to feel something....I'd ignore it all, while it ate me up on the inside. I think I wanna beat her ass like she did mine. I think I wanna seclude her in a room with no human interaction....control her, give her no freedom, and make her feel like nothing.....I want revenge. I want to see that she 'gets it', understands, has remorse...gets out of denial.

She has no idea I talk of her like this. She lives 2 hours from me, never visits, never calls, however she visits her mom and family 8 miles from me. I'm not included. She has no idea what she has done or what impact it has had. She has no idea of my Thearapy, my diagnosis, nothing, because she chooses to ignore me.

Last I talked to her was a year ago, I left ernie this time last last year and called her to tell her I moved. She was in alaska at the time, forgot the time differnce, and she bitched at me cause it was 4am there. Before that I hadn't talked to her in about another year or two.

So I retract my statement, I can never forgive her...I currently do my best not to think about it. My therapist is retarded, social security is even more retarded, and I'll get a new T in Sept. when my insurance starts. Maybe start again then on how to cope w this constructively.

*

And one more thing, why the FUCK is this all on me, why do I have to forgive her, why do I have to put all this energy into her when she put absolutely none into me. She deserves nothing. Not my forgiveness, not my compassion, nadda. I will work on me and how to cope with the thoughts, the dreams etc....learn to not let them bother me as they do. Fuck forgiving her, I think that would take way more energy then just learning to get over it, and deal with it best I can. Forgiving her wont help me....Forgetting her will. Accepting she will never be anything to me, nor do anything for me, even if it's just a phone call.

well said

[AveMaria]

I agree. Well said, Tammy. I can relate and it is not a nice place to be or nice feelings to have.

xxx

[successful_workthru]

I think forgiveness comes to us.

I think many of us, well I have, made the mistake of telling ourselves we forgive, because we don't want to carry around anger and bitterness with us.

We forget that these things we feel, have to dissolve, for forgiveness to manifest.

We plough ahead doing, what we think, are all of the right things, because they are, but we missed out the steps where the bitterness dissolves.

We either do not realise we need this bitterness to dissolve, or we do realise this, but we take a wrong approach in dissolving it.

This is how I relate to my own experience, anyway, and others who feel bitter, but dont want to carry around bitterness.

Victim consciousness is often born at an early stage in our lives, when we are dependant on those who hurt us, for our own very survival. Being small and defenceless, with no means of escape, and no learned ability to cope, can feel like things 'are happening to' us.

I don't want to carry bitterness around, but I want to know how to dissolve it, as it will be gone then.

I feel like I have had developmental time stolen from me as a child, and at my most fearful times, feel utterly at the mercy of others in adulthood.

Saying 'no' to people, and being ok with that was a skill that I am yet to learn, as a middle aged adult.

I think new coping styles come with confidence, and that confidence comes with realisations.

Realisations come at a stage when we are ready.

By this time, we no longer feel at the mercy of others, and are not afraid of what they will do.

This is because we will have grown in strength, so anything they do, we know is their problem. We are no longer affected of upset or scared by what they will, or might do.

Something has to happen first though, inside of us.

We have to start having lightbulb moments, and self awareness, is a great dissolver of bad feeling.

Even uncomfy realisations can be a tool, which enlightens us to ourselves. Feeling these bad feelings can help us discover wrong beliefs, that we gave birth to, as helpless dependant infants. Beliefs of victimhood.

[lyndseylollipop]

Hey

i Just wanted to add, that I would love to forgive my parents but I dont know how. They don't even realise they neglected me and verbally abused me. They didnt realise the millions of self harm cuts I had all other my body and they didnt know I had councilling or depression when I was 11. I would love to move on, and I try. I moved 250 miles away so I could get on with my life but everytime I have to go visit something will happen and will bring me back to how I used to feel. My brother of course is perfect in everyway, and I quite clearly aren;t. My boyfriend says that maybe I could move on if they knew how I felt, and that is why I am stuck in my feelings. But if i told them how I felt I could never go back, and they would see me as a failure for having something wrong with me, and not being like my brother. Or it would cause massive arguments between my parents and they would blame each other and continue to neglect the real issue. I cant move forwards because I cant tell them. How can I overcome this?? It has been 11 years since this all started and I dont wanna be upset anymore, because its not fair. I didn't ask for my mum to leave, I didn't ask for any of it, and while my whole family is moving on, I'm not and I was the one that came through for my dad when he needed me. PLease can someone give some advice

xxxxxxxxxx

[successful_workthru]

lyndseylollipop

I am no one to give advice, but I wanted to post, to share my own experiences, and maybe it will help.

Forgiveness is not something we do, but it is something that comes to us.

I am also someone who has been hurt by unremorseful, and unaware parents.

I, too, live nearly three hundred miles away, because every time I interacted with them, I felt like another little bit of me was eroded away.

It wasnt until I had been where I am now for three years, that I decided to cut off contact with them.

I was running out of excuses to not go and visit, and I did the estrangement by letter (email) because I could get my points down better. At that stage, I just needed distance from them, and kept a line of communication open. This dwindled, when I was just getting superficial and shallow emails of them.

How was I going to move on, when they were not willing to acknowledge their role they played in my life.

One thing that did release a significant amount of torment was a realisation that came to me.

This was the fact that they must have been carrying round great pain themselves, in order to treat their kids this way. Prior to this realisation, I just thought I was bad, and a failure at being a family member. I just thought they were unexplainably cruel for no reason, but there was a reason, they were in emotional agony, so much so, they darent even look at it themselves, and found themselves being cruel to their kids. They couldnt help themselves. What a horrible place to be.

I moved for reasons of self preservation and damage limitation, and I dont regret it.

I still have some bitterness to work though, because my past means that I have difficulty saying no to people in my current life.

I feel that they stole my ability to stand up for myself so much so, that I go blank and fear people will walk all over me. I dont want to rely on others sticking up for me, like I have done. I dont want to become a bitch, just someone who is capable of taking care of herself, in a non abusive way, and fending off exploitation.

When I have worked through this, though, my life will open up. Things will be so much more clearer.

Wherever my family is at, I will have no problem interacting with them without being bruised by them.

As to how this will happen, I will know in time, as yet, I do not.

You must have been a very switched on kid, to inititate counselling. I think that was good for you at that age, it shows that there are people who care.

I am not suggesting you cut ties. Do so, if you feel its right for you, but it has to come from your heart.

Maybe you will find another way of minimizing the toxicity from them.

Sadly many abusive people will not readily confess, as it is too painful for them.

They cannot even reflect on themselves half the time, and resort to defensive mechanisms like deflecting the pain outwards.

It's my guess that their childhoods were non too happy, whether or not they will admit this is another matter. Again, too scared to face what was, and how things are for them. Sorry if I am wrong, though.

Many people put on a veneer of being allright, and the perfect family, but scrape the surface, and its anything but.

Could you prepare a letter saying how you feel. I found writing easier than talking, this was due to the time factor.

I hope you can find something useful in this.

[lyndseylollipop]

Hey

Thanks so much for your advice. I have often thought about writing a letter but I never know how to approach it. My dad doesn't really believe in depression or anything, more has the view of just get over it. which is just so like him, because he was depressed when mum left and cried everyday for a year, not allowing his children to cry without making it all about him, so of course he is against the very mention of depression or any upset. I think maybe if I write it down it could help evenutally but it will open a can of worms. I was lucky to have the best grandparents in history - who we frequenty stayed at while dad worked all the hours. They got me through, but unfortunately I lost my grandad in March and it all is a bit hard still. We have lost 3 members of the family this year - so far, and a fourth who has gone into a home. This makes me think my issues have to wait for a more suitable time as everyone is already so stressed and I wouldn't want to add to it. It is just so hard because I do know my family care about me, but they dont know how to care for me in the way I need. Ultimately, they have given me scars that i believe will never heal, and I didnt deserve them. I dont know even what telling them will do, I think maybe it just needs addressing that they did me wrong for a long time, and for it I still struggle coping. My family are just selfish I think, and maybe they dont think things through before they say and do things, but because no one ever talks about their feelings, it is never brought up again but to me it then always lingers. It is like i need closure. I cant describe the emotional blackmail and torture they caused me, they preyed on me because I was vulnerable and used me as a weapon against each other, putting their needs and issues before the care of their own. I know i am rambling, but I feel so alone because, I am just another girl from a broken home and I know people go through a lot worse so i never let on about how much it all hurt. My boyfriend went through loads and he is fine, he is more stable than me. I dont get why I am different. But i can never describe how much it hurt and for how long, it just feels like I am too sensitive.

[catspiracy]

Hey

Thanks so much for your advice. I have often thought about writing a letter but I never know how to approach it. My dad doesn't really believe in depression or anything, more has the view of just get over it. which is just so like him, because he was depressed when mum left and cried everyday for a year, not allowing his children to cry without making it all about him, so of course he is against the very mention of depression or any upset. I think maybe if I write it down it could help evenutally but it will open a can of worms. I was lucky to have the best grandparents in history - who we frequenty stayed at while dad worked all the hours. They got me through, but unfortunately I lost my grandad in March and it all is a bit hard still. We have lost 3 members of the family this year - so far, and a fourth who has gone into a home. This makes me think my issues have to wait for a more suitable time as everyone is already so stressed and I wouldn't want to add to it. It is just so hard because I do know my family care about me, but they dont know how to care for me in the way I need. Ultimately, they have given me scars that i believe will never heal, and I didnt deserve them. I dont know even what telling them will do, I think maybe it just needs addressing that they did me wrong for a long time, and for it I still struggle coping. My family are just selfish I think, and maybe they dont think things through before they say and do things, but because no one ever talks about their feelings, it is never brought up again but to me it then always lingers. It is like i need closure. I cant describe the emotional blackmail and torture they caused me, they preyed on me because I was vulnerable and used me as a weapon against each other, putting their needs and issues before the care of their own. I know i am rambling, but I feel so alone because, I am just another girl from a broken home and I know people go through a lot worse so i never let on about how much it all hurt. My boyfriend went through loads and he is fine, he is more stable than me. I dont get why I am different. But i can never describe how much it hurt and for how long, it just feels like I am too sensitive.

Hugs to you Lyndsey, that sounds so painful!

My family was big on the emotional blackmail, too....I've been estranged from them for about 6 years now. At this point, I've chosen my "family", the friends that are kindred spirits, and also most of my inlaws...and I don't miss my family anymore. I kind of look at them like characters in a Shakespearean tragedy. You can watch them walk a path into a dismal deathbed and weep at the pathos, just like theater, it has nothing to do with me. And with that perspective, suddenly, you feel kind of sorry for them all. They're missing the key to life, as they play their pathetic games with weak and helpless people they ought to shower with love and kindness! And as workthru says, you start to see how they are driven by their own pain and can't help themselves. I tend to have sudden images of them as small children, and what they must have underwent to have become so monstrous. And my heart just sort of becomes expansive and I forgive them from afar. I've learned to tell their spirits "I invite you to ascend". Because really, if everyone would open their hearts to empathy and compassion, there would be no more of this kind of bullshit, trauma, and abuse, and everyone would get to nirvana a whole lot faster, lol! Anyways, it may be off-topic, but it's my belief that the more of us that turn toward the Light, the less misery could exist on this poor planet.....

[AndyL]

Forgiveness is not something we do, but it is something that comes to us.

That's just perfect. I think it's true--it's why actively attempting to forgive eventually fails.

I have forgiven my mother. She beat me mercilessly, isolated me for weeks at a time in my room, screamed and threatened me at the top of her lungs for years. I was mad about that for a long time, beginning when I was 27 when I suddenly wondered why I wouldn't care if my parents died. I stopped speaking to her then (except for a brief interlude several years ago where she did, in fact, prove she hadn't changed). It's been 19 years since. I don't plan on ever speaking to her again--I have enough problems. My brother and sister feel the exact same way, and don't speak to her as well.

My childhood was a living hell. The PTSD aftershocks still rock me now and again. Yet I no longer care. And, while I don't actively hate her, I don't plan on seeking her out. She lives in Panama anyway, in an attempt to escape the Bush gang, while the rest of us sat here, suffered him, and eventually rejected his indefensibly destructive policies. Coward. I don't forgive her for that.

There are a lot of reasons outside of what she did to me as a child that are truly contemptuous. They are what make her her. She is a monstrous, bigoted hypocrite, which is reason enough for anyone to steer clear of her, let alone me. Or my kids.

But what she did to me those many years ago...meh. Whatever. Her behavior towards me was terrible, but I bear her no ill feelings about it anymore. Forgiveness came to me. And it feels all right.

[Tammy]

I'm glad you made it there to that point cheesy. I can't wait to make it there myself.

[successful_workthru]

lyndseylollipop

You could start off writing a letter with no pressure to post it, and all the time in the world to write.

This may help you get points down on paper, so stuff is a bit easier in your head.

If you dont mind me saying, and corrrect me if I am wrong, your dad sounds like he is one to repress his feelings, and brush them under the mat.

This is never good because you cant ignore feelings.

You cant force him to express feelings, but you can offer him your feelings, and its upto him what he does.

You dont, however, have to take his abuse, and your life does not have to be miserable because of your parents.

Sorry to hear you lost your grandad and other family members to death, and illness.

You don't have to cause anyone stress, but you shouldnt take stress from others, due to their behaviour about their own stress. Its hard living at home with people like this. I left home late in life, but feel much better living away from my abusive parents, who aslso, don't acknowledge the importance of emotions and feelings.

My parents fed and clothed me, and home was very comfortable, but emotionally barren, scary and belittling.

You're right, you don't deserve scarring off them.

If your parents have high defensive barriers, chances are they will shun any attempt from you to tell them how you feel. This is about them, though, not you.

While they refuse to see your point of view though, they may still be abusive.

I know it can feel like we are trapped, as affording to move out can seem costly, and there may be other ties we feel that bind us, but for the sake of our own pscyhological health, I think it is best to distance ourselves from hurtful people who refuse to see the role they are playing in our lives, for what it is.

Each person must judge their own situation for themselves.

I believe, however, when we take steps towards our own personal growth, life seems to lend a hand.

Like when I moved away, it felt daunting and complicated, and there were money and job worries, but everything seemed to go swimmingly, when I took steps to extricate myself from being hurt more.

I think your feelings are valid. You are not just another girl from a broken home, you are a human being with feelings that need addressing and working through, so you can become more yourself. Its like honoring yourself. We all deserve that.

I feel like I am too sensitive, weak and a let down to myself, but like you, I just have feelings to work though.

We are not really weak, we are strong. We tend to compare ourselves unfaviourably with people. We judge ourselves because we think others have had harder times, and coped better, but the truth is, we are all different people dealing with things differently, and not better or worse than each other.

[Sammy]

Tammy, once you get to the stage of I guess realisation, you realise that all the anger and stuff is actually using energy, but you've done it so long you don't notice it or realise it. When the time comes that you can forgive you will see that it takes no energy at all but in fact a release of negative energy that is hurting only you. By learning to 'forget', to 'cope' you are using energy to do those things, and as you can never really forget you will continue to use energy for as long as you live without realising forgiveness.

Forgiveness does not mean the person is 'let off' or that you 'forget' or that they even 'deserve' the forgiveness granted to them, but instead it is for you, not them that you forgive. That you let go of the hope they will change, craving for your childhood back, being a victim, hurting, anger, the dark place, craving for their love or affection that you will never get etc...

It does not mean you have to tell them or ever contact them. It does not have to benefit them in any way whatsoever. They have themselves to live with, to live with all their regrets, all their guilt, all their mistakes, whether you forgive them or not.

Even if they don't feel those things, they will get in life what they reap. They will not be looked at with respect, kindness etc...and for this they may feel sorry for themselves but have brought it on themselves.

You say why should you spend energy on them, but you are spending way too much energy on them now.

And why should the onus be on you to forgive? Because, to forgive them, is to release your own negativity, to bring about positivity in your life. And to reap the rewards of being stable, positive and healthy - that being content and happy. Not fighting every day to cope, to survive, to get by, but to really live, live completely and entirely for you. It is not good enough to simply survive, use coping techniques every day to get by. It is much better to be well, happy and stable naturally. And through forgiveness this becomes possible.

Forgiveness is not a release for the persecutor, but for the persecuted.

And seriously as much as I try it's so hard to explain, to help you truly understand, because it is an inner feeling of relief and release, like breaking free, escaping, seeing the light and the colour in life, not dulled and darkened and faded and hidden.

But I agree forgiveness cannot be forced, it takes time.

It's not even saying I understand you for what you have done, because I still do not understand why the things were done to me or why they act the way they do. Simply, forgiven, let go of and moved on, no longer a captive to the abuse of my childhood, free to live my life in the present, the good that I have now, and the potential of the future.

I guess by awknowledging they have no hold of me anymore, that now I live my own life, make my own choices, mould myself, and these people no matter what they have done, hold nothing over me, I have no bad feelings about them, I hope they learn from their mistakes, I hope they make happy lives for themselves and get over their own badness/evilness and move on.

But, they are no longer a part of my life, and I will no longer waste my time or energy with ill feelings or regrets or false hopes and desires.

[Tammy]

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