Constantly Tired

[b0bulat0r]

I feel constantly tired and completely shattered even when I’ve done nothing at all.

Sometimes I’ll be in bed and I’ll want to get up to work on a project or write some of my book or do something in general and I’ll think come on lets get up and do it and I simply don’t move. I’ll lay there sometimes in excess of a quarter of an hour screaming to myself in my head, MOVE, MOVE, MOVE but I simply cant get up.

I have issues with sleeping that quite possibly highly contribute to this.

I find it impossible to sleep at certain times and find it incredibly easy to sleep at others. I seem to get 95% of my energy at about 9pm which increases over the next couple of hours up to about 1am. So most nights its normally 2am or so before I can settle and sleep. On weekends this isn’t a problem because I get up at around 10 or 11 and I get decent nights sleep. On weekdays I have to get up at 7 and that’s slap bang in the middle of when my body ideally wants to be asleep.

I have terrible nightmares a lot of the time that I don’t mind sharing on here with people but they would have to be posted elsewhere on even darker more triggering areas of the site. These nightmares often leave me waking up feeling physically and mentally exhausted and incomplete or dead or like I’m not right anymore.

I went to see my GP to talk about why I feel tired all the time noting that I didn’t think it was due to lack of sleep. (When I was on holiday I was getting 9-10 hours a night and I felt no better or any less tired)

I had a series of tests done and was told there was nothing biological that they could find. I’m not diabetic, not anaemic, it wasn’t thyroid no infections or obvious defects to me and she said there was nothing wrong with me.

I was adamant that there was because its not right that I can barely move a large portion of my life even when I’m desperate to do things.

She turned around and told me that it was most likely because I was depressed. We argued long and hard on this because I do get depressed. Infact I get very depressed. But ive been getting depressed for the last 11 years (that’s about as far back as my memory goes anyway) and ive never had this tiredness before.

This all started about 4-5 months ago and has been a problem ever since. This morning I woke up at more or less dead on 7 am. Which is when I should be getting up for work. But today rather than having the wanting to get up and cant. I had the didn’t want to get up and wouldn’t. It took me till 7:30 to drag my arse out of bed and get ready to come to work. (I skipped breakfast due to being late)

(yes if you look at the time stamp of this post you will notice that I am actually at work whilst posting again, but I seriously do not feel very productive this morning at least not until I’ve gotten all this off of my chest) [please no hate comments again about me posting from work I know I shouldn’t but its not a problem the person who sees who looks at want on the internet and controls what is blocked/unblocked is me so I’m hardly going to look at the usage report and slap myself in the face am I?] And I still firmly maintain that having a rant and getting what’s bothering you off of your chest greatly increase your ability to cope with and amount of work you do for the rest of the day.

I asked the GP if it was possible to get a referral to speak to someone who might be able to help and she contacted a local clinic for me that supposedly have an excellent therapist. I was sent a letter in the post asking what my requirements where etc and whether I was still interested in seeing someone which I replied to but was told that the typical waiting list to get a first appointment can be up to 25 weeks due to the high demand.

Which ok it’s the NHS what do I expect but that’s still a very long time to myself to carry on struggling like this.

I don’t understand how this can be from depression because it’s preventing me from doing things that I want to do and that I’m motivated to do. I understand how depression could cause me to not want to do the things I hate like work but when its preventing me from doing things I love I find it hard to believe its simply that.

I want some form of enjoyable life back where I’m actually able to do things I love and enjoy things.

I don’t mind adding to this post or talking about the reasons why there are background depressions if anyone needs to know.

Just wondering if anyone has any ideas, suggestions for coping with this and if this has effected you before how have you dealt/are dealing with it.

Again thank you to all the people who regularly post and support it is very appreciated and I love you .

[Sammy]

I have ME, which causes me to feel that way all the time and has done for many years. ME does not show up in any tests and is hard to diagnose. Do you get muscle ache with the tiredness?

I know it's probably not helpful to you, but 25 weeks is actually a pretty short waiting list for the NHS, here it was over a year and now they've closed the list completely so can't even get on it.

[b0bulat0r]

I have ME, which causes me to feel that way all the time and has done for many years. ME does not show up in any tests and is hard to diagnose. Do you get muscle ache with the tiredness?

I know it's probably not helpful to you, but 25 weeks is actually a pretty short waiting list for the NHS, here it was over a year and now they've closed the list completely so can't even get on it.

I get severe back ache but i take that to be a re-occurance of when i was nearly paralysed and had to have physio.

I have found that i get massive aches or pains in my legs when walking or running which considering running used to be a hobby of mine and i used to be able to endure the pains from over excerise i do find the pain kicking in pretty much as soon as i start which makes me stop.

Other than that I have found my strength and speed generally to be 10% of so of what it used to be when I was 17 (and i'm only 22) it has been just over this last year that my health has really dropped so suddenly (with doctors having no idea why)

I find it all quite terrifying and depressing in itself because it feels as if i'm losing my life to something I dont even know what it is or how to fight it.

I hadn't considered ME because even though I know a little about it I thought it effected people more or less completely. where as even though it takes me a long time like half an hour to move when i finally do i'm usually able to stay up until the next time i sit in a comfy chair or bed.

I dont know a massive amount about it though so anything you can tell me is appreciated.

I also hope it isnt that because i've heard its as hard to treat as it is to diagnose.

Thanks for replying to me

[Sammy]

Yeah treatment involves graduated excersise, diet and anti depressants, none of which are 100% effective. No cure either.

I think there are varying degrees of ME, and there is a questionaire which I had to do with my doctor to score the severity of my strain. Not sure what it meant but I got 14/24 as my score, though by the questions they asked, I think if I'd scored any higher that would have been narcolepsy not ME lol!

[b0bulat0r]

Yeah treatment involves graduated excersise, diet and anti depressants, none of which are 100% effective. No cure either.

I think there are varying degrees of ME, and there is a questionaire which I had to do with my doctor to score the severity of my strain. Not sure what it meant but I got 14/24 as my score, though by the questions they asked, I think if I'd scored any higher that would have been narcolepsy not ME lol!

How did you go about finding out that you might have had ME to have that questionaire done?.

Is it something I should just go back to my GP and say Oi i'm not right I want to be tested for it. I quite often get told by my GP that i'm just fine and to go away who seriously thinks i'm just a hypercondriac because i've already asked for a series of tests that all came back saying "i'm fine"

Get the feeling they dont really care about how you feel or what your going through they just want to slap some pills in your face and say go away.

Still hoping someone can turn around and tell me its something else that I can easily get rid off

[jades]

just wanted to add my 2 cents that depression effects every aspect of lif good and bad it makes you not enjoy the things you love as well i know when im depressed it can be debilitating i dont wanna do anything that includes things that i think will help me cheerup or make me happy hope that helps hugs xxxxxxxxxxxx

[b0bulat0r]

just wanted to add my 2 cents that depression effects every aspect of lif good and bad it makes you not enjoy the things you love as well i know when im depressed it can be debilitating i dont wanna do anything that includes things that i think will help me cheerup or make me happy hope that helps hugs xxxxxxxxxxxx

Yea I have found sometimes normal things that cheer me up like watching certain films or playing certain computer games sometimes I just feel whats the point? or why bother?

The greatest worry for me is how its effecting one hobby in particular which is my story writing. In the past when i've had a story idea i'd get up at 3am to write it down because my novels have always been one of the most important things to me.

Not having the energy to physically move and get up to write (even in the middle of the day) is severely aggrivating as often now i find by the time i get my arse out of bed and drag it to the computer my idea has gone likely never to return again.

Or at least to return in a changed and possibly not as good version when I half repeat the idea later.

I'll try anything at the moment to get rid of this.

[Sammy]

I said to my doctor...I know I'm not supposed to self diagnose, and looking up things on the internet is bad as we can start thinking we have everything wrong with me, but I have looked up my symptoms and would like to run it by you and see what you think....I think I may have ME, the reason I think this is....and then listed my symptoms.

She said that those symptoms may be part of the depression or even my diabetes, but that yes ME was a possible cause too and so did a questionaire with me on her computer. She said that I may have ME by the results, but that the priority right now is to sort out the depression and diabets and we could deal with ME later.

She then said what would help me if I do have ME as I listed above so that I could work on that if I wanted to.

[Sammy]

Oh and vit D i think it is helps too, the one you get from sunlight? Also things like fish oils.

[roxy222]

I feel constantly tired and completely shattered even when I’ve done nothing at all.

Sometimes I’ll be in bed and I’ll want to get up to work on a project or write some of my book or do something in general and I’ll think come on lets get up and do it and I simply don’t move. I’ll lay there sometimes in excess of a quarter of an hour screaming to myself in my head, MOVE, MOVE, MOVE but I simply cant get up.

I have issues with sleeping that quite possibly highly contribute to this.

I find it impossible to sleep at certain times and find it incredibly easy to sleep at others. I seem to get 95% of my energy at about 9pm which increases over the next couple of hours up to about 1am. So most nights its normally 2am or so before I can settle and sleep. On weekends this isn’t a problem because I get up at around 10 or 11 and I get decent nights sleep. On weekdays I have to get up at 7 and that’s slap bang in the middle of when my body ideally wants to be asleep.

I have terrible nightmares a lot of the time that I don’t mind sharing on here with people but they would have to be posted elsewhere on even darker more triggering areas of the site. These nightmares often leave me waking up feeling physically and mentally exhausted and incomplete or dead or like I’m not right anymore.

I went to see my GP to talk about why I feel tired all the time noting that I didn’t think it was due to lack of sleep. (When I was on holiday I was getting 9-10 hours a night and I felt no better or any less tired)

I had a series of tests done and was told there was nothing biological that they could find. I’m not diabetic, not anaemic, it wasn’t thyroid no infections or obvious defects to me and she said there was nothing wrong with me.

I was adamant that there was because its not right that I can barely move a large portion of my life even when I’m desperate to do things.

She turned around and told me that it was most likely because I was depressed. We argued long and hard on this because I do get depressed. Infact I get very depressed. But ive been getting depressed for the last 11 years (that’s about as far back as my memory goes anyway) and ive never had this tiredness before.

This all started about 4-5 months ago and has been a problem ever since. This morning I woke up at more or less dead on 7 am. Which is when I should be getting up for work. But today rather than having the wanting to get up and cant. I had the didn’t want to get up and wouldn’t. It took me till 7:30 to drag my arse out of bed and get ready to come to work. (I skipped breakfast due to being late)

(yes if you look at the time stamp of this post you will notice that I am actually at work whilst posting again, but I seriously do not feel very productive this morning at least not until I’ve gotten all this off of my chest) [please no hate comments again about me posting from work I know I shouldn’t but its not a problem the person who sees who looks at want on the internet and controls what is blocked/unblocked is me so I’m hardly going to look at the usage report and slap myself in the face am I?] And I still firmly maintain that having a rant and getting what’s bothering you off of your chest greatly increase your ability to cope with and amount of work you do for the rest of the day.

I asked the GP if it was possible to get a referral to speak to someone who might be able to help and she contacted a local clinic for me that supposedly have an excellent therapist. I was sent a letter in the post asking what my requirements where etc and whether I was still interested in seeing someone which I replied to but was told that the typical waiting list to get a first appointment can be up to 25 weeks due to the high demand.

Which ok it’s the NHS what do I expect but that’s still a very long time to myself to carry on struggling like this.

I don’t understand how this can be from depression because it’s preventing me from doing things that I want to do and that I’m motivated to do. I understand how depression could cause me to not want to do the things I hate like work but when its preventing me from doing things I love I find it hard to believe its simply that.

I want some form of enjoyable life back where I’m actually able to do things I love and enjoy things.

I don’t mind adding to this post or talking about the reasons why there are background depressions if anyone needs to know.

Just wondering if anyone has any ideas, suggestions for coping with this and if this has effected you before how have you dealt/are dealing with it.

Again thank you to all the people who regularly post and support it is very appreciated and I love you .

i have massive issues with tiredness, physical emotional mental the lot

i have adhd which effects the sleeppatterns i go through meaning its more difficult for my brain to switch off and doesnt go through the restless sleep patterns the same way other peoples do.

but for me its also much more than this, i have constant dreams and flashbacks and am highly triggerable which when it happens means i need to stay with the feelings to find the memories and processing it all is a hell of alot of work. for me thats the biggest thing, i feel the burden of teh truama is exhausting for me.

i have no real advice, i try best not to run from it, to support myself even when i feel like falling to pieces and to take as best care of my body as possible. often for me i get bodie memories and i think the tiredness is a way of fighting this, i have been through alot of brainwashing due to r/a its likely this maybe programming although i dont know for sure

speaking to a close friend helps

just my experiencex

[Roses]

I must admit what went through my mind was ME, sleep apnoea, and some sort of immuno problem like a virilant virus or something. You can also have a UTI for a long time with no symptoms sometimes so is worth checking.

You can, of course, also get tired with depression but you know your body best. Can you get referred to a sleep clinic where they will monitor you overnight and do tests etc...? My hubbie always dozes off about 10ish then within half an hour he is wide awake and up til 1-2am like you and at weekend he'll sleep right through to lunch. Partly his is bad sleep pattern but partly he gets sleep apneoa symptoms but won't seek help. You tried all the warm milk, relaxing atmos stuff I take it? There is always Kalms?

I haven't ever really slept unless on sleeping tablets. I didn't sleep through til I was 4/5 my parents dispared but I am terrified of the dark so is for a whole other reason and I hallucinate. I hope you find something that helps sorry for rambling on. xxx

[Azure]

I feel constantly tired and completely shattered even when I’ve done nothing at all.

Sometimes I’ll be in bed and I’ll want to get up to work on a project or write some of my book or do something in general and I’ll think come on lets get up and do it and I simply don’t move. I’ll lay there sometimes in excess of a quarter of an hour screaming to myself in my head, MOVE, MOVE, MOVE but I simply cant get up.

I don’t understand how this can be from depression because it’s preventing me from doing things that I want to do and that I’m motivated to do. I understand how depression could cause me to not want to do the things I hate like work but when its preventing me from doing things I love I find it hard to believe its simply that.

I want some form of enjoyable life back where I’m actually able to do things I love and enjoy things.

these parts of your post i can really relate to. i have exactly the same thing a lot of the time where i'm just laying there, it's like talking to a brick wall in your head.

i always see it as though the body is a robot that has malfunctioned, and you've lost the manual. and no matter how hard the little you in the control panel brain is pushing buttons getting it to work again, the signals just aren't getting through. but then i always think, there shouldn't even be a manual, this is my brain! and it's frustrating because you can't understand it! sorry if this makes no sense whatsoever, i have a bit of a crazy imagination.

when i was at my worst i would just not care and lay there until i had to get up for necessity, like go to the bathroom. that might be the only time i left my room in 24 hours sometimes.

these days i've been able to get up and do things, but i still can't tolerate a set time- if my body needs to be asleep after my alarm goes off, it will, especially if i have things to do. i found i stopped enjoying a lot of things i love like painting, and even tiny things like emailling a friend seem like huge chores, because just the fact something is looming over me makes me want to roll over and bury myself in the duvet.

even though you may not be moving at all, the mental toll it takes to burden these huge, never-ending dark clouds is exhausting in itself, like they're physically weighing you down. i think that's why it seems the tiredness never seems to be quenched, and why it's so difficult to lift your head up to do anything.

i honestly feel for you :hug2:

[successful_workthru]

just wanted to add my 2 cents that depression effects every aspect of lif good and bad it makes you not enjoy the things you love as well i know when im depressed it can be debilitating i dont wanna do anything that includes things that i think will help me cheerup or make me happy hope that helps hugs xxxxxxxxxxxx

Yea I have found sometimes normal things that cheer me up like watching certain films or playing certain computer games sometimes I just feel whats the point? or why bother?

The greatest worry for me is how its effecting one hobby in particular which is my story writing. In the past when i've had a story idea i'd get up at 3am to write it down because my novels have always been one of the most important things to me.

Not having the energy to physically move and get up to write (even in the middle of the day) is severely aggrivating as often now i find by the time i get my arse out of bed and drag it to the computer my idea has gone likely never to return again.

Or at least to return in a changed and possibly not as good version when I half repeat the idea later.

I'll try anything at the moment to get rid of this.

How about a notebook and pencil by the bedside?

I can relate to how you are feeling, energy wise.

I have lost all interest and motivation and I feel dead inside.

I am like a big child because I cry if I cannot get to my bed, anytime of the day.

I often cry when I wake up, due to a horribly intense feeling of dread and emptiness.

Everything I am eating or drinking is going through me.

Depression irritates the gut in some people, and kills the appetite.

I would suggest the pen and paper by the bed, and see if this makes it easier to jot an idea down.

If you are tired, just jot keywords down.

If the writiting is therapy to you, maybe having writing materials by the bed for you to grab when an idea comes will help?

[successful_workthru]

I hope you dont't feel like I am hijacking your thread B0bulat0r, but I just wanted to add, that the paragraph below from Azure resonates with me.

when i was at my worst i would just not care and lay there until i had to get up for necessity, like go to the bathroom. that might be the only time i left my room in 24 hours sometimes.

these days i've been able to get up and do things, but i still can't tolerate a set time- if my body needs to be asleep after my alarm goes off, it will, especially if i have things to do. i found i stopped enjoying a lot of things i love like painting, and even tiny things like emailling a friend seem like huge chores, because just the fact something is looming over me makes me want to roll over and bury myself in the duvet.

Getting out of bed has always been a problem for me.

I feel more alive when I am dreaming, and a fog seems to descend on me when I wake.

I think mental distress can use up energy, too.

[b0bulat0r]

A big thank you to everyone who has responded to this post.

I've felt really depressed with this today, because yet again I was 10 mates late getting up and getting ready for work as I woke up feeling as if I hadnt got any sleep at all even though I managed about 3-4 hours last night. (thats pretty good for me on a week night)

Today I was clearing out my workshop downstairs and carrying things to the skip to throw them in. The majority of the things I was disposing off were empty computers (you cant throw away a computer because its electrical waste but i've checked with DSD if you strip it out so its just bare metal/plastic its ok to throw away)

these empty cases are incredibly light and easy to pick up most small children could happily swing one around. Yet i found carrying them to the skip made my arms ache incredibly and they felt incredibly heavy, something that was depressing me the entire time I was moving them because I Knew in my mind what sort of weight they should be and they should not have felt that heavy. years ago I was carrying server towers by myself showing off that I didnt mind how heavy they were, and by years ago I mean when I was 17 and i'm now only 22,

this in itself is one of the most incredibly depressing things. I USED to live incredibly unhealthy and yet always had no problems over the last few years ive made several positive changes to how I treat myself (like when i changed jobs i traded a 35 minute drive for a 10 minute walk) and yet my health seems to be rapidly fading infront of me and nothing I try seems to have any effect.

successful_workthru I dont mind at all. If we benefit someone else within my ramblings then all the better and lets go for it and your not detracting from my post

as for what i've tried. I have found that music helps me to sleep. I used to worry about my headphones strangling me but i bought this pillow called a sound asleep that has a speaker in the middle and lets me plug my ipod into it, its loud enough for me to enjoy and to filter out external sounds but its not loud enough that if my head isnt on it i cant really hear it so people in the other rooms of the house are not disturbed by it.

That has helped me to get more restful sleep. but I still get the violent and traumatic nightmares (again i haven't described them here because I believe doing so would require me to post in the triggering topics section something i'm prepared to do if people think its helpful and just post a link to mentioned post here)

but the problem is way more than just insomnia, it doesnt matter if i sleep 2 hours or 12 (i've had nights of both) i wake up feeling like i've just done a weeks worth of work and i'm exhausted.

I've started getting these massive headaches with it that cause me to have to close my eyes or else they send this burning pain to the back of my head. I seem to get this whenever i've been forcing myself to move and work and get on with things when my body is having one of its not working days.

I do keep a note book by my bedside but I have always had terrible problems with handwriting due to my disabilities. anything I write in there at 3 am in the morning say will the next day just look like a rambled scribble. I was always allowed to bring my laptop into lessons at school and I pretty much avoid putting real pen to real paper and type most of my literature whenever possible.

occasionally seeing the scribble can spark what I was going on about and trigger the idea to come back but more often than not i get frustrated that ive not recorded it properly and throw the paper away and get all self depressed over it.

Roses

I must admit what went through my mind was ME, sleep apnoea, and some sort of immuno problem like a virilant virus or something. You can also have a UTI for a long time with no symptoms sometimes so is worth checking.

Whats UTI? sorry for asking a stupid question,

Thanks again to everyone who has replied to this topic. I'm going to go off to bed now to see if i can get any sleep cause guess what

I'm absolutely shattered

surprise surprise

[successful_workthru]

Thanks for introducing me to the "sound asleep pillow" I never knew those things existed

Depression can have a physical component, and it can be debilitating.

About your headaches, do you get migraine?

I don't but I used to know some one who did, and I think stress can cause them.

Are you happy in your work? relationships? - not for me to know, just to prompt questions for you to identify a cause of this fatique.

Do you have a voice recorder for your stories. I have one on my phone, could you record ideas into the recorder? My phone recorder is suprisingly clear, even though the phone is pretty basic.

[b0bulat0r]

Thanks for introducing me to the "sound asleep pillow" I never knew those things existed

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Textiles-Direct-be...1823&sr=8-1

If you want to look into getting them Amazon have them for only £11 I see that as a bargain

About your headaches, do you get migraine?

(Yes Frequently, very often blinding and debilitatingly painful)

Are you happy in your work? (Nope) attempting to address this but currently an issue

relationships? - (Nope) I have a few fantastic friends I love but alot of destructive people and alot of problems dealing with people at the moment also single and feeling very "unloveable" at the moment

Do you have a voice recorder for your stories. I have one on my phone, could you record ideas into the recorder? My phone recorder is suprisingly clear, even though the phone is pretty basic. (I don't at the moment but thanks for suggesting it might see if i can get myself one at the weekend)

[Roses]

Hey Bob, a UTI is a urinary tract infection (wee infection). For some reason men (and sometimes women) can have them in their bladder for a long time with no major pains just tiredness and being run down. Viruses can do funny things to you. xxx

[Roses]

I forgot to say, they have ruled out anaemia right? And you eating well and varied diet? They not only need to check for blood platelet count but also for platelet size. You can have billions of the little guys but if they not big enough you get anaemic symptoms as can't absorb O2 and that so you tired. xxx

[successful_workthru]

Hi Bob

Thanks for the amazon link.

Good luck with your stories, a creative outlet helps.

Also, good luck in identifying, and healing bad relationships in your lfe.

I am in a similar boat, but slightly different.

All my life, I have been a yes man. I dont even know I am doing it.

I also feel a bit alone and that all decent friends have given up on me, and all that is out there, for me, are soul draining exploitative people. This is only a belief though, and I am in the process of similar healing myself to you, in identifying and challenging any wrong personal beliefs about my self, which I may hold.

Things like the above, with friends and relationships.

[b0bulat0r]

I forgot to say, they have ruled out anaemia right? And you eating well and varied diet? They not only need to check for blood platelet count but also for platelet size. You can have billions of the little guys but if they not big enough you get anaemic symptoms as can't absorb O2 and that so you tired. xxx

Aye they checked me for Diabetes because my grandma has that. They checked me for Aneamia because my dad has that.

they also checked me for kidney/liver infections and the checked me for thyroid.

all of those came back A ok clear and fine.

I used to eat terribly when I was 17 (and at the prime of my fitness) i would eat litteraly junk all the time. Now i'm eating "properly" without the junk, with proper meals and plenty of fruit and veg etc. i've also exchanged driving for walking wherever possible and yet i feel 1000000000000000 times worse than I was when i was 17

Also to note alongside it when I was 17 and felt perfectly fine I was slightly overweight, I'm now Slightly underweight

I came home from work today and came upstairs to put my computer on to have a check on this site and finish a document i've been working on for my stories. I put my mac on and got changed out of my work clothes into something more comfortable. I then fell back and collapsed on my bed.

3 hours later I got up feeling like i'd been hit by a truck screaming F*** as i'd just lost another 3 hours of my life and didnt feel any better for it.

[successful_workthru]

I think it would be a good idea to see your doctor again, as it is interrupting your lifestyle.

Also, the areas of your life which are too stressful, these will be having an effect.

[jades]

bob i was thinking about it and u sound like depression but if it got worse in my case it was sleep apnea i had testing and woke 145 times in 5 hours and didnt know it i got 0% delta sleep needed to regenerate the body whih could explain the weakness it also cases depression a simple sleep study can detect it all u do is sleep with wires hooked to u and then if u have it they give u a machine called a cpap that is like an air compressor/humidifyer that keeps your air ways open its a simple solution and has great results just thought it maybe worth looking into cause before i got mine i could sleep 12 hours and feel like i didnt get a wink and sometimes feel worse xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Roses]

((((((((((((((Bob)))))))))))))))))