Conflict In The Forum

[Ruth24]

Hello all,

We all have conflicting ideas that we will want to express when somebody starts a new topic, and this can lead to heated debate. But i feel that when the debate becomes about the person and not the topic something should be done. There is a right way and a wrong way to go about these things and sometimes the wrong way can turn into bullying individuals and or groups of individuals. I feel if you have a problem with somebody or some people it should be sorted in the correct manner with the help from moderators and staff and go through the correct channels. Otherwise it leads to conflict and people in here have mental health issues and conflict and anger can be a trigger. everybody has a right to an opinion but when it becomes about a person or people, it should be handled responsibily

thats just my opinion

[Data]

I pretty much agree with you, Ruth.

Misunderstandings are common in my experience, particularly on the internet when you can't see the other person's body language.

I think it is ok to sort out individual disputes in private, indeed I have done that myself with a few. If the disputes were aired in public then the forum would just become a personal slanging match and that is contrary to the aim of providing support in my opinion.

[quiteemma]

i agree wit u both on this

[axtell1080]

i second that.xxxxxx

[hummm_mabbe]

Coping with other people, and especially conflict, is pretty much a core problem for most folks with personality disorders. In a way, conflicts online can help to give experience in learning how to handle conflicts using empathy and assertiveness. That would be the ideal way for these things to go.

However, everyone loves a good car crash and to be honest, conflict threads almost always get the most views, most replies and hang around longer than any other. Just watching the "who's viewing this thread" bar on the recent conflict thread proves the point - it seemed rarely to go below 4 people viewing it at any one time.

We all say how much we hate it, but really we like a good rubberneck as well and cant resist wading in. Lets us get some of that anger - thats probably directed at other people in our lives - out at a target we know cant touch us because they're just a box on a screen.

Fights happen - we dont have to keep clicking on the thread link though. Let the scrappers scrap it out on their own, then it fades away quicker than if we all keep picking at it and writing more threads about it.

[jades]

i agree however there is a loop hole the venting section ... everyone is allowed to say what they pretty much wish as long as it doesnt break terms in there and u cant respond which i find a bit despicable when it comes to speaking about others i know ill get some hate for saying that but its just an opinion

[Ocean Wolf]

I agree to an extent, but also see the other side.

As has already been stated, learning to deal with conflict is alright. Personally, if there was no conflict on here I wouldn't have any chance to see how I'm doing in that area. But that may just be me. I also want people to be encouraged to take responsibility for things they say, like they would have to anywhere else. Of course, I'm basing this on the fact that this site is aimed towards recovery and these are skills we need to practice to recover.

Also, as may have been noted, a recent argument has a few people being very rude (to say the least) to staff members. This was apparently over something that already was a rule. This has happened before and will most likely happen again since they are, after all, the most visible people on the forum. I don't know how the staff can sort it out in the way that's suggested without becoming the targets.

[Data]

As has already been stated, learning to deal with conflict is alright. Personally, if there was no conflict on here I wouldn't have any chance to see how I'm doing in that area. But that may just be me. I also want people to be encouraged to take responsibility for things they say, like they would have to anywhere else. Of course, I'm basing this on the fact that this site is aimed towards recovery and these are skills we need to practice to recover.

Thats a good point actually. I suppose disagreement is inevitable but it can be sorted out nicely and calmly. The problems occur when the language is offensive and the posts are trying to hurt people rather than trying to resolve the issue.

Also, as may have been noted, a recent argument has a few people being very rude (to say the least) to staff members. This was apparently over something that already was a rule. This has happened before and will most likely happen again since they are, after all, the most visible people on the forum. I don't know how the staff can sort it out in the way that's suggested without becoming the targets.

I gave up posting on that topic because I figured whatever I say just fuels the fire.

[hummm_mabbe]

Its also true that even when people are being verbally abusive, its still possible to remain empathic, assertive and to realise that another persons negative view of you may say just as much about them as it does you.

If you get defensive youre basically saying you belive them, and feel you have to defend yourself. If you just say "yano what, many people have said things like that, and you may even be right. Maybe I could have said / done that better. It seems youre upset by what I said - how can we work this out?".

Most people would rather cut bits off their own limbs than do this, and yet it is a million times more effective and powerful. You dont actually have to belive what theyre saying to you. The reason they have resorted to insults is because they feel desperate and they feel youre ignoring them. If you focus on trying to repair the relationship, or SHOCK HORROR actually create a new one, then insults dont matter. But if your ego is screaming at you to protect your pride and engage in insult or defensiveness tennis, then you will be coming back to that thread for many weeks to come.

Find a grain of truth in what the other person says, because there nearly always IS ONE. It may not be to the extent they are ranting about, but it will be there nonethless. If you can try to see the argument at least partially from their point of view, and validate their angle, then you will reach a conclusion quicker and whats more you will come out of it with more self respect, respect from them AND those unfortunate enough to following the 'debate'.

There are HUNDREDS of books written on this, and everyone talks about their therapy programmes - yet it seems that online everyones training seems to utterly breakdown, as if their very lives and honour depended on it. The reason? "The unseen audience". The sensation is that hundreds of people are watching you being insulted and ridiculed, when in fact there really isnt. Its the common internet formula - anonymity + audience = conflict.

Lastly, sometimes no matter how convinced you are, and even your friends are that you are in the right, sometimes there is some truth in the other persons argument. It may have become wildly exaggerated - but as long as you focus only on winning, you really never do. One of the best books to describe all this is David Burns "Feeling Good: The new mood therapy" or his "Feeling good handbook". They are both goldmines of communication and self esteem tips.

[Data]

Find a grain of truth in what the other person says, because there nearly always IS ONE. It may not be to the extent they are ranting about, but it will be there nonethless. If you can try to see the argument at least partially from their point of view, and validate their angle, then you will reach a conclusion quicker and whats more you will come out of it with more self respect, respect from them AND those unfortunate enough to following the 'debate'.

I think this is good advice, Ross, and has much wider applicability than on this forum.

It is an area that I struggle with because, I find I am feeling different emotions to others in a given situation so it makes empathy hard. This is perhaps something I need to consciously work on .

[hummm_mabbe]

Just to add

Im not saying its easy to do - its actually very very hard. But Ive seen first hand the almost magical effect it can have on people, because they just arent used to people having self respect AND listening to the opposing POV. Its disarming - which is why Burns calls it "the Disarming Method"

The other good thing about it is that you are actually trying to preserve the relationship. You try to understand what feelings they have that have been hurt. If they just keep reacting and insulting, then this method actually uncovers people that are just out to be abusive whilst remaining connected to those who are just angry or upset.

My coverage of it doesnt do it justice - in the books it covers several pages. The good news is you can pick up the new mood therapy for a couple of quid off amazon.

[Ocean Wolf]

Personally, when someone does attack me like that, I don't want a relationship with them. It's all fine and dandy if it was a misunderstanding or it was no big deal and they apologize or something like that. But someone taking their own pain out on me? No. That's why I have no contact with my dad (abusive). That's why I've blocked a couple people on msn (one was sending insulting e-mails to both myself and my mom and the other played a cruel "joke"). There is no reason for me (or anyone) to put up with that.

So while you have a point, Ross, I think it really depends on the situation.

[hummm_mabbe]

I may be teaching you to suck eggs Ocean, I appreciate that as you have been through a programme of recovery much of this is already known to you. I would still like to make the point generally however.

Yes it does indeed depend - it depends on whether they are being abusive for the sake of being abusive, or if they actually are trying to make a valid point, Thats where empathy can let you find out what the aim is. If you just attack back out of fear, hurt, defensiveness or pre-emption, you never make that distinction, and instead may jump to the conclusion they are attacking you, insult them back and actually start the argument proper yourself at that point. They may see YOU as the attacker, and you are left wondering what the hell happened and "why does it always go this way?". If you find yourself 'over-reacting' to perceived sleights, and then curse yourself afterwards, this may be an issue to look at.

If you have been abused yourself, then your tendency to presume the other person is being abusive is much higher - but then that also leaves you prone to interpreting a simple disagreement as a personal attack. You may also go the other way and fail to nip the start of negative actions in the bud. If you empathise first, and focus on the relationship at that point (you dont have to want one later) then you will be better able to figure out where they are coming from. If you are reading these words but picturing your dad or someone who behaves like him, then of course this advice will seem hollow - he actually has, and perhaps does, abuse you. Dealing with him requires another method entirely to the rest of life - but its a mistake to treat the whole world as if it were him or may potentially become him. As a child you needed him, he abused that. As a child, you had no choice. Now you do not 'need' that person, and you do have a choice. The problem comes when you enforce that rule too rigidily, and in situations that dont warrant it. Having a reliable method for distinguishing the two is the point of what Im saying. Mindfulness is also useful here as Im sure youre aware.

I am also not only talking about the "remove it all" thread here, Im talking about life in general. I agree with you entirely, but at the same time understading where baggage stops and reality starts is an added challenge for us all here. Thats why empathy helps us through the minefield. If someone is being abusive, you STILL dont have to get defensive. Check with empathy first, then walk away if your suspicion is confirmed. By fighting an 'abuser' you end up involved with them anyway, giving them your energy. You stay stuck in the same pattern by fighting back and being defensive. Empathy breaks it - it empowers you - but if you are still afraid of being abused or taken advatnage of, thatsd the way youre going to see so many interactions.

Clearly if they are using insults and brutal put downs, avoid them and definitely be aware of any desire to gain their approval, prove to them how wrong they are, or beat them at their own game. Swim with sharks and you will get bitten ... What we are talking about here is when open conflict begins, and how to stop it escalating. If someone is calling you all the names under the sun, unprovoked and unceasingly but with no apparent agenda other than abuse (as opposed to having originally had a point but has devolved into name calling out of frustration - frustration you yourself may have caused by invalidating or defending from their their original point), I dont think anyone would question the logic of getting rid, even if tis a family member.

If someone is rude, be assertive but still be empathic - easier said than done, but enormously effective. You dont have to take up grenades and bullets just because they have - that way you just start a war. Is there NEVER a need to go to battle? Of course not, that would be an overgeneralisation. But the impulse to defend fiercely and lose control of ourslves is so much easier in the case of personality disorder. That is why a practical method of telling the difference is so important.

[Ocean Wolf]

I agree completely. lol Despite the fact that I have trouble keeping my temper in check. It's gotten better I swear!

We talked about this a lot in anger management, but I must say, they didn't describe it quite that well. We also went into communication and how to de-escalate the situation. I've found it very helpful. I'll post more about that later if anyone is interested.

[Sammy]

I agree to this to an extent, but as a mother I have an instinct to defend and protect my children, and when someone attacks them in an abusive manner, calling them names and worthless etc....Defensiveness as oppose to empathy kicks in, and in this given situation that was what happened, although it was in a pm not on the board for everyone to see.

I agree I should have walked away, as like you say when it is clear that it's abuse for the sake of abuse, that engaging with the abuser doesn't help myself, but then that's easier said than done when mothers instinct kicks in.

[Sammy]

I think people also forget on this forum, that what they read isn't always all that is going on as particularly abusive posts are made invisible to the population whereas we can still see them and feel hurt by them, not only this but noone sees the pm's that are sent either. So what people on here may witness may not always be everything that is going on.

[Sammy]

Oh and yes, paranoia that others are feeling the same way towards me does come into it too. How do I know that the people on here that talk to me in chat, talk to me in the forum etc....who I believe are my friends, aren't also feeling this way about me and just not telling me? Especially when somone out of the blue pops up defending the abusiveness (not you, you're comments are very non biased and fair) and making further false accusations about you when they've been having nice conversations with you in the past and you thought you got on well with them, that they had never mentioned or hinted towards having any issues with you previously?

All this blows the paranoia up in your mind and makes it harder to trust anyone and easier to feel everyone is against you. Whether that be the reality or not, it takes a lot to work through that in your own head.

But most people that know me or have dealt with me will tell you that I do normally use empathy to deal with conflicting situations regarding myself or others. I'm not going to beat myself up over one occasion where I reacted emotionally and impulsively rather than thoughtfully and empathically, because we all make mistakes and it's how we act the majority of the time that counts.

Will await your response Ross, with anticipation as I find the things you say very informative and fair, and enjoy listening.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Sammy

I can understand why you have felt so upset lately, and especially given what you have said. Those kind of feelings and issues are very powerful, especially for a mother, and the sensation of hidden agendas and unspoken hostilities is one I can relate to from outside experience. Its very unsettling.

I can see how my comments may have come across as an overgeneralisation, and it would perhaps have been better if I had seen how there may be exceptions. Sometimes I get caught up in the excitement of writing and can fail to look at all sides of the thing. I wanted to suggest methods of coping with general conflict applicable in a large amount of situations, and I appreciate there are any number of extremes and exceptions to a rule - which someone insulting or threatening your children most certainly is.

I do feel like its going to be difficult to discuss any of these more general issues without the painful emotions of that thread being brought up for you and others, or possibly a continuation of that argument starting here either by others chiming in, or something I say triggering your feelings again. I dont want to rake those feelings up or reopen wounds, so that is one reason why ia m trying to speak generally.

Personally I have found "The Disarming Technique" works in anything from mild criticism to outright abuse - taking the wind out of the sails of the mild critic, and positively pulling the rug out from under the abuser. That is perhaps something that can only be understood and belived from experience, which is why I wanted to suggest it here. I have not very often seen it mentioned and I think its very effective, even empowering. I hope that my suggestion of its use does not come acriss as a veiled criticism, as it is not intended that way. The key is to do it without putting yourself down - its delivered with a "twinkle in the eye". My coverage of it barely does it justice, as there is a greater deal of emotional nuance to it than I have been able to write and so I hope that people will look it up in the original books - "Feeling Good - The new mood therapy" being the cheapest. The internet pages I have found on it are wrong unfortunately, especially the one at sourcesofinsight.com - that actually refers to a different technique entirely under the wrong name.

I hope this doesnt seem dismissive - you are not upset without good reason and I hope there is someone you can talk to to get the feelings aired and soothed.

[hummm_mabbe]

I agree completely. lol Despite the fact that I have trouble keeping my temper in check. It's gotten better I swear!

We talked about this a lot in anger management, but I must say, they didn't describe it quite that well. We also went into communication and how to de-escalate the situation. I've found it very helpful. I'll post more about that later if anyone is interested.

Hi Ocean

I would be very interested to hear about de-escalation methods and the stuff you covered on communication :)

[Sammy]

No I got the idea that you were generalising, I was just interested in whether you'd accept there are times where there may be exceptions to the rule which you have, but I'd still like to give another example, I hope you don't mind. I don't mean to take over the thread.

Yesterday I was threatened and abused by a bloke from across the road. He is uneducated, doesn't read or write and spends his days getting drunk, sitting outside his house shouting abuse at everyone that walks past.

Now...my answer is to totally ignore it on all ocassions, if it becomes a problem, keeping a log to show the police, etc..

However my partner isn't on the same wave length as me, and after a year of this abuse, seeing me upset and too scared to go out, not being able to let the children play out etc...he snapped and shouted back at this bloke. (there is a gang of them but this bloke was the one that shouted abuse on this ocassion)

The thing is, there is no amount of reasoning you can do with someone like this, or even showing empathy, because he literally does not understand what you are talking about.

My response when he threatened to Knock us out and kill us was to stand where I was and say come on then do it, repeated each time he repeated his shouts and threats, and saying well I'm still here, I've not gone anywhere.

I was terrified and shaking, but felt this was the only solution, because they have no respect for someone that runs away.

As it was he didn't act on his threat even after the rest of the gang came over and joined in, the eventually left and I felt quite proud I had stood my ground against them all and they'd backed down before me.

I have never done anything like this before and am hoping there will be no repurcussions to it. As they did leave with threats to damage my car and house as well as to get my partner the next time he comes out.

That said and done when I went out 4 times so far today, they are no longer sat in the street but just outside their doors where they are less intrusive and intimidating. Not one shouted any abuse or threats at myself or my partner - question is, is this the calm before the storm?

I guess I've gone off topic a bit here, I guess I am too looking for some validation for my own actions that were out of character for me.

[Sammy]

I dunno I think the thing that worries me is that yesterday I don't know how I felt I was so messed up in the head from the adrenalin rush following the incident that I made myself feel ill and had to sleep. Today I feel quite proud of myself but the saying goes pride before a fall right?

[Data]

Yesterday I was threatened and abused by a bloke from across the road. He is uneducated, doesn't read or write and spends his days getting drunk, sitting outside his house shouting abuse at everyone that walks past.

I don't understand what his lack of education has to do with anything. You can get abusive well-educated people as well you know .

[Sammy]

Yes but the educated ones you can talk your way out of it using Ross's methods! The uneducated ones it goes over their heads!

[Data]

Yes but the educated ones you can talk your way out of it using Ross's methods! The uneducated ones it goes over their heads!

Fair enough.

The uneducated ones all go on the Jeremy Kyle show.

[hummm_mabbe]

No I got the idea that you were generalising, I was just interested in whether you'd accept there are times where there may be exceptions to the rule which you have, but I'd still like to give another example, I hope you don't mind. I don't mean to take over the thread.

Yesterday I was threatened and abused by a bloke from across the road. He is uneducated, doesn't read or write and spends his days getting drunk, sitting outside his house shouting abuse at everyone that walks past.

Now...my answer is to totally ignore it on all ocassions, if it becomes a problem, keeping a log to show the police, etc..

However my partner isn't on the same wave length as me, and after a year of this abuse, seeing me upset and too scared to go out, not being able to let the children play out etc...he snapped and shouted back at this bloke. (there is a gang of them but this bloke was the one that shouted abuse on this ocassion)

The thing is, there is no amount of reasoning you can do with someone like this, or even showing empathy, because he literally does not understand what you are talking about.

My response when he threatened to Knock us out and kill us was to stand where I was and say come on then do it, repeated each time he repeated his shouts and threats, and saying well I'm still here, I've not gone anywhere.

I was terrified and shaking, but felt this was the only solution, because they have no respect for someone that runs away.

As it was he didn't act on his threat even after the rest of the gang came over and joined in, the eventually left and I felt quite proud I had stood my ground against them all and they'd backed down before me.

I have never done anything like this before and am hoping there will be no repurcussions to it. As they did leave with threats to damage my car and house as well as to get my partner the next time he comes out.

That said and done when I went out 4 times so far today, they are no longer sat in the street but just outside their doors where they are less intrusive and intimidating. Not one shouted any abuse or threats at myself or my partner - question is, is this the calm before the storm?

I guess I've gone off topic a bit here, I guess I am too looking for some validation for my own actions that were out of character for me.

The method is good to understand what the persons aim is, to understand their position so that you are equipped to handle it.

In the case of your neighbour, its already OBVIOUS what his aim is - to be abusive. You dont need to figure it out - and so you can go straight to the next step, as already mentioned, of self protection and assertion, which you did. Effectively you do have empathy for him - you are aware his intention is to be abusive. Empathy is NOT the same as sympathy, or giving in - it is simply the ability to get a true represntation of what the person is feeling and intending. In VERBAL, non-personal safety threatening communications, validation of that feeling can be hugely helpful. But the examples you are talking about step outside of the aim of this thread - you are talking about real threats. I leave it up to you to choose what that next step should be, I personally would call the police or my local anti-social behaviour line.

Similarly I wouldnt suggest empathy to someone who wanted to know how to deal with an attacker - I would suggest self defence or something along those lines. You dont reason with someone who is already acting with criminal intent and again I'll point out - thats not what this thread was about. It was about dealing with normal online, office, or between friends / family type conflict. These are verbal techniques for verbal conflict - once its apparent you are under real threat then clearly its time for a new strategy.

If you feel vulnerable in the world, and perhaps feel angry at me for suggesting that all those worries can be solved with a simple technique, then I can understand that. I hope you realise that Im talking about a specifric range of interactions and not every instance in your life where family, self or belongings might come under threat.