Existentialism And Jacko

[rebeccaborderline]

Hi,

My wish here is really not to offend, and is not specifically about Michael Jackson; just the dichotomy between art/talent/gift, and personal flaws.

I know I am not alone on this forum in struggling with "the bigger picture" whilst neglecting the minutae of life-part of my BPD, Im convinced.

I would like to start a general discussion.

How do you feel about someone who has made a major contribution to human endeavour, but may have been a flawed individual?

Lets start with Jacko. He was accused of abuse of children, and aquitted. Doubt remains for some people, and we will probably never know the truth, so we must presume innocence.

However does his possible guilt diminish his undoubted talent? Should those of us who find him guilty erase his gifts, because of the damage he (perhaps) caused? However badly he was treated as a child? Do we excuse what he perhaps did because he was so talented, or erase all he did because he was a criminal who never got caught?

On a much more extreme level, Hitler was a mediumly-talented watercolourist; biographers point to his rejection by the Vienna School of Art as the start of his bitterness with establishment. Today, the Marquis of Bath holds the biggest private collection of Hitler paintings, bought by his father, a Nazi sympathiser. They are worth millions.

Does Hitlers undoubted crimes mean his artistic talent is null and void?

If anybody wants to look it up, the recent case of Roger Took is much more clear-cut for me, but apparently not for his academic contemporaries.

Colin Pitchfork-murderer of 2 teenage girls, but producing exquisite and imaginative art, recently exhibited in the Hayward Gallery-can we separate his talent from the crime? does one forgive the offender with talent because of the talent-or deny it the talent exists because of the crime?

I dont have the answer, please discuss

reb

[Roses]

Actions maketh the man. I think that's the quote. Yeah, you could be a world class fine artist or a wonderful musician but if you cross the line between right and wrong you are judged by your actions as a man/woman.

At the end of the day murder/rape/child abuse whatever are the real big issues and there is a basic right in society to be safe as an individual. Art is expression and on the maslov's triangle thingey self-actualisation is right at the top and is tiny cos we don't actually need it (per se) to survive. But we do need to be fed/clothed/have shelter/have basic safety/love.

[Data]

I agree with Roses.

There are all sorts of talents, for example some people are highly intelligent, organised and good at leading people. You could use this talent to be a leader in some positive role (e.g. a manager or businessman or politician or campaigner or charity worker). You could also use it to be a gangster or organised criminal who commands a vast criminal empire and has people killed who get in his way. Talent can be used for both good and bad purposes.

You can never forgive a crime because of someones talent. That person just becomes a criminal with an (undeniable) talent. But being a good painter or whatever isn't much good to the people you hurt by your crimes...

[canadian mike]

"Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder."

I was a big fan of Pete Townshend; the legendary lead guitarist, lyricist, & composer of "The Who". When he was arrested & later convicted of possessing child porn, my opinion of him was lessened, dramatically. While I would still state that he was a very talented musician, I wouldn't go for a beer with him. I feel the same about MJ, both talented & flawed.

I believe that it is the same for anyone we meet/hear about, famous or not. Obiously, we each draw a line as to what facets of another's personality are considered by us to be admirable or heinious, based on our individual values. Where to draw that line seems to come easily to most, though ardent fans must, surely, face great ambivalence. Personally, I can appreciate positive contributions made by an individual, yet, be disappointed, even disgusted, in this same person, without feeling torn.

[roxy222]

for me if someone abuses a child or mourders someone then thats it.

i remember there was a serial killer who invented a cure for malaria while in prison, proably saved millions more than he killed, but thats beside the point for me, someone would have invented the same thing soon enough and he did not have to go out and kill people. when it comes to artistic contributions well for me these are about the persons voice, and if it is the voice of someone who abuses a child then i have no interest in giving them my time. if they do other bad things i dont think i would feel this way, but on these subjects for me id rather they never existed, even if that means loosing alot of valuable work.

[Stevietrixta]

I am not sure how popular saying this will make me but...

I think its sad that you're respect and like for someone goes down because you found out they were convicted of possessing child porn.

I would expect a board of people with metal disorders to understand that people can't help the way they think. Yes its horrible and not legal but you can't condemn someone because they think differently to you!

If he had acted and abused a child then yes that's wrong as it's illegal and not nice as it harms others. And as said earlier we all have a right to be safe.

He didn't act on it though. He knew it was wrong and didn't act fully on his thoughts and urges.

Instead he has lived with his mental hell of knowing he can't get what he wants. He has suffered to save self dignity and the safety of children.

I don't fancy children but I am Gay... So i know what its like to fancy someone you shouldn't! yes its different because I am not harming anyone but I still know what its like to have thoughts abstract to those in the 'norm'.

....It saddened me at the response this got here...

Stevie x

[Data]

I am not sure how popular saying this will make me but...

I think its sad that you're respect and like for someone goes down because you found out they were convicted of possessing child porn.

I would expect a board of people with metal disorders to understand that people can't help the way they think. Yes its horrible and not legal but you can't condemn someone because they think differently to you!

I cannot agree with you Stevie.

The children who were abused in the making of the child porn would probably not agree with you either.

And, those images of them will be shown on the internet for years.. imagine how that must feel.

By buying the child porn, the people are supporting that abuse.

Having said that, I don't condemn the people for the way they think, its when they act on it (by buying the child porn) that is wrong.

We must remember also that Michael Jackson was never convicted of any sex offence.

[Roses]

I think there needs to be a ibt of persepective here Steve.

What happens between 2 consenting adults is not a crime in this day and age whichever way people want to play is fine with me.

What happens between an abusive adult and an innocent child is clearly wrong and, in my opinion, wanting to do that sort of thing with children is wrong.

And btw a heck of a lot of people on this site are only suffering due to the things that happened to them as children so why did you expect any different response?

[Stevietrixta]

I am not sure how popular saying this will make me but...

I think its sad that you're respect and like for someone goes down because you found out they were convicted of possessing child porn.

I would expect a board of people with metal disorders to understand that people can't help the way they think. Yes its horrible and not legal but you can't condemn someone because they think differently to you!

I cannot agree with you Stevie.

The children who were abused in the making of the child porn would probably not agree with you either.

And, those images of them will be shown on the internet for years.. imagine how that must feel.

By buying the child porn, the people are supporting that abuse.

Having said that, I don't condemn the people for the way they think, its when they act on it (by buying the child porn) that is wrong.

We must remember also that Michael Jackson was never convicted of any sex offence.

Obviously I agree with you on that. Its horrible the idea of it and i am not sure what forms child porn comes in? I assume it's all net based as I can't imagine a printers doing magazines and stuff.

My opinion was from the point of view too that we don't know in what forms this child porn was (and I don't think you should assume???)... could have been drawings that physically harmed no-one.

Stevie

[Stevietrixta]

And btw a heck of a lot of people on this site are only suffering due to the things that happened to them as children so why did you expect any different response?

I don't know everyone on this site do I?

and I think on this thread the way I wrote my reply displays more perspective than other responses. Each to their own but we seem to be in a society where stuff like this is brushed aside instead of talked about and getting sorted.

I would rather get to the bottom of why adults think this way... by leaving it underground you are giving more chance for children to get abused.

I knew this would get a bad response but at least I didn't shy away from being honest.

One other question might be how you would react if someone came onto the board saying they started getting thoughts about children and how could they stop it... would you shoot them down or try and help them? ... I think I can imagine a very closed minded response.

Stevie x

[Roses]

I'm not saying you know everyone here. It was a response to your statement saying this was a mental health site. Yes, it is and a lot of us were s/a by adults.

If someone put up a thread saying they wanted to s/a children I would hope it would be dealt with in the appropriate way by the moderators.

I don't think s/a and child porn should be brushed under the carpet but there is a time and a place. Say this person who did this 'drawing' that physically didn't hurt anyone accidentally left the picture lying around and a child got it, or they put it on a website and a child accessed it? Is that not harmful?

[Data]

One other question might be how you would react if someone came onto the board saying they started getting thoughts about children and how could they stop it... would you shoot them down or try and help them? ... I think I can imagine a very closed minded response.

I think you are right.

But if that person submitted a ticket (using the Submit a Ticket button at the top of the page) then I am sure the staff here would advise them how to get help.

Many members here have suffered horrific sexual abuse and I can't imagine how that must feel, so they are bound to react sensitively or negatively to this sort of thing.

[Stevietrixta]

good response meme.

roses,

I was thrown away as a child... discarded by my mum and put up for adoption... but this doesn't mean I hate all women that get rid of their children.

I like to think that no matter whats happened in my life I am still intelligent to think objectively despite personal prejudice. Any form of abuse is horrific, physical or mental and I am not denying that... please stop reading things into my posts that are just not there.

This should be a place of honesty... not a place where you can manufacture your thoughts to fit in with the majority.

Stevie x

[Roses]

I don't give a shit about fitting in with the majority, never have. Sorry if I mis-read your posts I was just repsonding honestly and thought that this was a two-way conversation. Sorry. I'll leave you all to discuss this one. Take care Steve. xxx

[Stevietrixta]

I don't give a shit about fitting in with the majority, never have.

very good, me neither which is why my opinions get voiced no matter how abstract they may seem.

This is two way so you don't have to stop taking part just because we disagree.

Stevie x

[Roses]

Thanks babe. But I don't think I have anything productive to say on here. No doubt I'll chat to you on another thread! I hope someone else joins in this convo and stops me hi-jacking it B)

[rebeccaborderline]

Hi Steve,

Quote from you- [its horrible the idea of it and i am not sure what forms child porn comes in? I assume it's all net based as I can't imagine a printers doing magazines and stuff.]

Note to Steve;

Isnt this a bit daft?

a) child porn is paper, video, photos, net, flesh-whatever medium is saleable

does it matter? I would like you to comprehend that child porn is not an "image" for titillation. At the time that "image" was taken, there was a real, flesh and blood child, being seriously abused.

I find it very strange that people of all types can divorce themselves from this - the blinkers that images on the Net or in magazines are somehow "not real"

They are.

I bet you, if some of the images unthinking people view are a bit old, some of those children will be dead. Lets not be too dramatic, they will have died by their own hand-of course Im not talking about "nasty" stuff.....just a slow suicide because they have been so debased, it becomes untenable.

reb

[roxy222]

I am not sure how popular saying this will make me but...

I think its sad that you're respect and like for someone goes down because you found out they were convicted of possessing child porn.

I would expect a board of people with metal disorders to understand that people can't help the way they think. Yes its horrible and not legal but you can't condemn someone because they think differently to you!

I cannot agree with you Stevie.

The children who were abused in the making of the child porn would probably not agree with you either.

And, those images of them will be shown on the internet for years.. imagine how that must feel.

By buying the child porn, the people are supporting that abuse.

Having said that, I don't condemn the people for the way they think, its when they act on it (by buying the child porn) that is wrong.

We must remember also that Michael Jackson was never convicted of any sex offence.

Obviously I agree with you on that. Its horrible the idea of it and i am not sure what forms child porn comes in? I assume it's all net based as I can't imagine a printers doing magazines and stuff.

My opinion was from the point of view too that we don't know in what forms this child porn was (and I don't think you should assume???)... could have been drawings that physically harmed no-one.

Stevie

yes there are magazine and films and internets porn all featuring real children being raped and torutured. not only this but supporting the child porn industry in any way is supporting people who systamaticly sexualy abuse children, intentionally have children just to be sexually abused and handed round to other peodos to be sexually abused, filmed protituted etc and these people intentionally use mind controla nd manipulation to silence these children or to tie them into this industry for life so they can then get to their children. they also forced children to abuse other children. your nievety is a shock, but dont assume anyone buying this matierial doesnt know exactly what they are doing when they comit such a crime. one natzi can cause horrific problems, when natzis come together and organise their crimes you get a holecaust, organised child abuse is no less evil and has the same long standing damage, not to mention that it also involves lining the pockets of higher ups the same way organised drug crime and gun crime do. I am shocked, utterly dumb struck..........

[roxy222]

I am not sure how popular saying this will make me but...

I think its sad that you're respect and like for someone goes down because you found out they were convicted of possessing child porn.

I would expect a board of people with metal disorders to understand that people can't help the way they think. Yes its horrible and not legal but you can't condemn someone because they think differently to you!

I cannot agree with you Stevie.

The children who were abused in the making of the child porn would probably not agree with you either.

And, those images of them will be shown on the internet for years.. imagine how that must feel.

By buying the child porn, the people are supporting that abuse.

Having said that, I don't condemn the people for the way they think, its when they act on it (by buying the child porn) that is wrong.

We must remember also that Michael Jackson was never convicted of any sex offence.

the vast vast vast majority of peados are never convicted though, doesnt make their crimes any less horrific or any less damaging to the children they harm, not being convicted is no sign of innocence, and when someone has power and money it is even easier to get away with thsi type of crime

[roxy222]

And btw a heck of a lot of people on this site are only suffering due to the things that happened to them as children so why did you expect any different response?

I don't know everyone on this site do I?

and I think on this thread the way I wrote my reply displays more perspective than other responses. Each to their own but we seem to be in a society where stuff like this is brushed aside instead of talked about and getting sorted.

I would rather get to the bottom of why adults think this way... by leaving it underground you are giving more chance for children to get abused.

I knew this would get a bad response but at least I didn't shy away from being honest.

One other question might be how you would react if someone came onto the board saying they started getting thoughts about children and how could they stop it... would you shoot them down or try and help them? ... I think I can imagine a very closed minded response.

Stevie x

your assumption that child porn does not harm children is what gives people more chance to abuse children. how about educating yourself on the facts before calling others close minded

[roxy222]

I am not sure how popular saying this will make me but...

I think its sad that you're respect and like for someone goes down because you found out they were convicted of possessing child porn.

I would expect a board of people with metal disorders to understand that people can't help the way they think. Yes its horrible and not legal but you can't condemn someone because they think differently to you!

I cannot agree with you Stevie.

The children who were abused in the making of the child porn would probably not agree with you either.

And, those images of them will be shown on the internet for years.. imagine how that must feel.

By buying the child porn, the people are supporting that abuse.

Having said that, I don't condemn the people for the way they think, its when they act on it (by buying the child porn) that is wrong.

We must remember also that Michael Jackson was never convicted of any sex offence.

Obviously I agree with you on that. Its horrible the idea of it and i am not sure what forms child porn comes in? I assume it's all net based as I can't imagine a printers doing magazines and stuff.

My opinion was from the point of view too that we don't know in what forms this child porn was (and I don't think you should assume???)... could have been drawings that physically harmed no-one.

Stevie

you tell others not to assume when you make the assumption that child porn does not harm a child!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! and even if it was drawings the money for them would have went back into the child porn industry which then would have funded the peados to make films. your ignorance is horrifying, no wounder so many children are at risk. 'its horrible the idea of it' horrible??????? what is that a joke???????????????? horrible, existing only for a bunch of sickos to tear your body to shreds to violate you and film it so others can share in your humilation and terror, horrible?????? i feel sick

[Sharingbody]

the help for someone who admitted to have attraction for child porn is therapy, dx paraphilia. but statistics say that paedos dont do therapy.

if someone admitted to own child porn, the help is to report this person to the authorities.

it's illegal. full stop. then therapy. you arrive to own that stuff because you enjoy it. that's being sick.

fortunately, there are ways to track down ppl on the net and their computers. so if someone on a forum would post about something illegal and harmful s/he being doing against children, i'm pretty sure his/her ip would be identified and the police alterted.

children MUST come first. many of us know the price of sickness from adults.

one life to recover from that, and it will be there forever anyway.

stevie, this is not at all about being proud of going against the majority. am i assuming right? if not, please, say something more.

if you trade compliance with paedos ring with that, even in a discussion... well.... i'm really lost for words and i feel sick, deeply sick.

are you enjoying seeing how people are hurt by your comments?

how you've flamed us?

why are you saying those things?

no mh dx would excuse it then in my opinion.

mods/admin, if i've said anything too much or offensive, please feel free to edit my post. i won't.

sb

[Sharingbody]

"I would expect a board of people with metal disorders to understand that people can't help the way they think."

about this, we all take full responsability for our behaviours.

it may be explained by a disorder, but never excused.

and you know what?

so so so many of us suffered as children and suffer as adults, developed a mental disorder, because of the abuse we've been through.

that's why we all stick to therapy. and abusers not. they find excuses for their behaviours.

sb

[Stevietrixta]

well i dont know as much about child porn as many of you guys I am afraid.

I really don't want to continue with this here as I know people don't respect other opinions.

I have been hurt by the personal attacks I have received and didn't expect it. In future I shall try and comply with a more normal mentality.

Sorry to those that have clearly has a related traumatic past. I can't help it if you get easily offended and I don't know what triggers you.

The start of this thread triggered anger in me but like a respectful adult I managed to voice my opinions objectively... little can be said for the sad responses following.

I spoke to a lot of VERY intelligent people tonight that know right from wrong about this and as I expected the response was similar to mine. Even from a friend that has been abused. I am very open minded and can't quite believe how people can voice such biased objections... step out of your own selfishness for a moment and look around you. There are others in this world you know.

Stevie x

[Stevietrixta]

are you enjoying seeing how people are hurt by your comments?

how you've flamed us?

why are you saying those things?

no mh dx would excuse it then in my opinion.

sb

I am not enjoying it.

Your flaming is caused by your own mentality I am afraid.

I am voicing an objective and un-biased opinion (clearly not the same from your side)

I agree nothing excuses pedophillia. I wish people would be a bit smarter and not read falsely into what I have mentioned.

Stevie x