Fatphobic.

[gothicangel]

Heres my take on what you have said.

I want to slice all the fat off me

That is unhealthy thinking.

When I put on the tiniest amount of weight I spiral into depression and I am very afraid of putting on weight.

Very unhealthy thinking, and may lead,if it hasnt to you living an unhealthy lifestyle in regards to food, and exercise.

You say you cant change the way you feel about fat. But thats not true. You can change the way you think, especially as at the moment it does seem to be a problem.

Are there any other food issues? Do you have a therapist? It may be worth speaking to your him about your thoughts.

Thanks bibiddi. I do have quite an unhealthy relationship with food, like some days I'll decide I'm not going to eat anything, and other times when I find a healthy meal I really like I'll only eat that for several days. I'm also slightly carbphobic and try to avoid bread and potatoes. I am currently waiting to be assigned a therapist, but when I am I will address these issues, thanks.

[Data]

I think its fine for gothicangel to say how she feels. And she did put up trigger warnings.

She says she is aware it is harsh, she might not necessarily like or be comfortable the way she feels.

I think its wrong to deny her the opportunity to express her feelings in a safe way and to get support.

[piuma]

wow gothic. maybe we need a little chat!! come and live with me for a wekk. and then maybe i can change your mind!!!!!!!!!

i would be your worst night mare. I AM FAT. i got 22 stone of it rolling around my body!!! sending you plesant thoughts???? i binge eat! i have little control over that, i find it intense and i hate myself for it. i hate food, i really hate it i wish we could ban from life all togther. sometimes i have eaten so much i dont need to make myself sick, it just happens, other times, i can go withou food for days, and its fine, just a cup a soup here, yea!!! i obssess bout calories tooo!!! you know how odd this is, i look in the mirror someties, not often cos i cant bear it, but sometimes, i can shave it off in my head, i cant see it for what it is. im sorry my fat repulses you, and im sure your friends would be delighted to know that everytime they are near you they make you physically sick!!! im not judging you for hating fat! you know what i hate it to! and i wish ...........oh god i wish that i had the control and perfection quality needed to be the other way!!! im lazy at times, yea, but thats not why im fat, jeeees, you look at the amount of calories i can binge and sometimes at my worst it can be 3 or 4 times a day, we're talking 2000 + each session, can ou see how i might get a little fat!!!!!!!!11

now you notice im not bothered by ruth's post. maybe its how she words things. and im suggesting you think about that!!

i dont wanna fall out withouy alrthough i suspect you might be poo'd off with this, but hey ho. thats your choice, im still willing to support you! if i can.

[Ruth24]

Just like to point out that being underweight is just as unhealthy as being overwieght, in fact moreso I think. If BMI very low the body cannot function properly and there is a high risk or organ failute, especially the heart.

I have a BMI of 14 and am being monitered

Fat people (i think it is better to say overweight or obese) i find, are much more socially accepted. Extremely obese, ok that is a different kettle of fish, but people who are overweight rarely get stared at in the street because a high proportion of the population are medically overweight or obese. It is pretty much 'normal'

Being underweight however, i get stared at. People will actually ask me, are you anorexic and laugh. People say how lucky i am to be able to keep weight off. If only they knew how tired i get, how light headed i get and how much i wish i could be comfortable in a body that is normal. Maryln Monroe was a size 14, an icon, an image of female perfection. curvy, voluptous. And at a size 14 I suspect her BMI was close to overweight.

I have nothing against overweight people, but i dislike being judged by them. I have said this before in another post. It seems acceptable to approach a an underwieght person and say 'God you are thin' but how would they feel if i said back 'God you are fat'.

Overweight is socially acceptable, underweight is not. (unless you live in California!!!) This upsetts me and i wear layers of clothes even in the summer to hide my slight figure.

[piuma]

also just anothe rpoint some peple have reason for being fat!!!!

i know i stay fat for a very good reason, i want to keep men away from me, i dont wanna get hurt anymore, years of sa have to me that its safer this way. lsdkfblakjfbglakgb i have to step away from this now im sooooooooo triggered. you forget its not just weight issues here, the reason begind why people are thin or fat!!! are nomal bvery very very very deep

i will not post again

]i am soorry

[Sammy]

meme, trigger warnings were added after!

And would it be ok for me to be racist if I put up trigger warnings?

I'd like to point out something here too, you only hate fat people that complain about their weight but do nothing about it.

1) How do you know they do nothing about it?

2) Would you say you hate an anorexic who doesn't make effort to eat?

And yes it is the same, because you'll find MOST severely overweight people have an undiagnosed eating disorder - it's called compulsive eating disorder and it's caused by underlying psychological and emotional issues just like with anorexia. How invalidating and hurtful would it be to tell an anorexic to stop moaning and just eat something?

And it's the same for those overweight people that can't just stop eating and excercise and lose weight.

Then you have more overweight people who are overweight due to lack of being educated about how to have a healthy lifestyle.

Oh yeah then you have the ones that weight soars because of medication and nothing they do can make them lose the weight, have you heard of depakote? It increases your appetite so that you feel hungry all the time, or what about all the anti psychotics that make you pile on weight? And yes insulin makes you put on weight too.

So ok, after we rule out all the overweight people that are that way because of an eating disorder, a food addiction, being uneducated about healthy lifestyle and because of medication - how many are we left with?

Do you not think that these people deserve some compassion and understanding for what they are going through? Do you think they enjoy being overweight? Do you think they feel wonderful about themselves?

Just in my case, I can't go out my door alone because every time I go out I am shouted at with abuse about my weight, or snide remarks made to each other (they seem to think I can't hear) about my weight, like urgh look at her or oy fatty lose some weight or oy you fat cow. I can't get a job because I'm terrified of working because EVERY job I've ever had I've suffered the name calling and abuse from most of my colleagues bar a couple of nice ones, even my supervisors would make fun of me. My school life was also hell.

Even family members would have digs at me about my weight, even to this day - my mum, dad, brother and now add to that my fiance's mother.

Do you think I don't already feel bad enough about myself that I need others to point out how disgusting and ugly I am?

But you know, calling them lazy or greedy (I know you didn't use that word) is wrong, because there are many overweight people that do long hours at work, come home, look after house and children etc... and then to be called lazy because they don't do extra exercise is just unfair, they are clearly NOT lazy.

Also to call someone greedy is wrong, because they are not eating from greediness but from a compulsion caused by their emotional state, low self esteem and psychological issues - only worsened by the lack of understanding and compassion by others.

[piuma]

i get stared at bullied, thrown things at, beaten, spoat, on, named calling you name, it, but then i guess im extreemly overweight, which i am,

sorry i ssaid i wouldnt post but ruthie just wanted to say i get very very noticed for bein over weight and i am not excepted. but like i said i am extreemly big xxxxxx

[Ruth24]

Piuma, I agree with you totally. My ED started as a control thing but it turned into a way of trying to get men to find me unattractive. I am sorry you are so triggered.

Please take care

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

[Data]

People will actually ask me, are you anorexic and laugh.

How thoughtless for someone to do that! I would never say that to someone. Whats funny about having a medical problem that makes you miserable and can kill you?

[piuma]

just wanted to say..................gothic, im sorry, this is not a target at you im sorry, i need a time out.....im sorry.....i do understand that what you feel about your own weight and seeing fat on you must be difficult to cope with, and im sorry your mum obviously has issues to, as it often does in families, ed tneds to go one way or anorther. im sorry again, i was badly triggered lkast night, and i guess this just brought up stuff........i do not want to fall out with anyone. xxx

[Sammy]

Ruth I feel offended by you repeating about how you have it worse than fat people and how being overweight is socially acceptable. This is a complete untruth.

Look at the media - how often do you see thin people glamorised and made out to be the thing that people should aim to be like? How many fat people do you see on tv that are glamorised? How often do you see a fat person on tv even? And when you do how do they get represented? Not normally in a very nice role! Or how about in magazines? Don't see them in fashion mags do you?

Like I said EVERY time I go out, I am abused because of my weight, no matter where I am, by strangers and family even. And yes everyone stares as I walk past and pulls disgusted faces. Also hear those that don't have the guts to say it to my face say to someone they are with things like urgh look at her amongst other stuff. I suffer complete humiliation daily when people draw more attention to me by shouting names at me etc...

And then having to go to special stores just to buy clothes because the normal shops don't sell them! Not having so much choice of clothes as other people, meaning regularly seeing other people in the same clothes you're wearing - which every stranger in the near vicinity likes to point out too. Clothes being much more expensive to buy - no such thing as cheap clothes shop for fat people - can't pick up a pair of jeans for a tenner or a top for £2-5 from primark or tesco, minimum we can get for is 10 for a top and 25-35 for jeans.

Yes like piuma there are times where I am thrown things at and spat at too.

If only all someone said to me was you're fat aren't you?

[Joshua]

Hi

Really in my own personal view i think if people have it on their mind then they should talk about it. This includes people who may have racist, fatist, thinest, what ever ist! opinions/views. Because only then can what they speak about be subject to oposing views, challanges and then changes in thinking.

Through discussion comes insight then comes change.

Please try not to take people's views so personally, You must have your own view of yourself that comes before any other.

[piuma]

very true josh, i just think maybe things that are gonna set off possible debates should have there own little place, then when someones in the mood to debate they can , or they can stay well away. i know there were trigger signs up but not till after. hmmm so can we have a debate place lol?

[Roses]

Earlier I asked Gothic about her feelings about o/weight people who were trying to lose the weight. I was in fact trying to get Gothic to look at her reasoning. Yes, it is not nice to say you find o/weight people repulsive but there is a reason behind it. I agree that making a broad statement like this is EXACTLY the same as being a racist or whatever. But it is something Gothic wants to talk about and try and look at becasue she knows it's not normal.

She does not abuse o/weight people, she wants to learn why she feels like this so she can CHANGE. I use the exact same words she does on a regular basis "I want to carve my skin off because I am repulsed by my fatness". I understand repulsion of fat on myself and it is not a huge leap that this could be applied to ALL fat. Thankfully that is not the case for me, but I am sure that Gothic feels plenty bad enough about her feelings and no doubt they are linked to her own self-image.

Can we get this conversation back on track please. If people want to discuss being o/weight or under weight, or they want to talk about people who judge then can I respectuflly request they open another thread.

Roses xxxxx

[gothicangel]

OK, wow. Lots to say, here goes.

Part of my (our) illness involves black and white thinking. This is definitely not a healthy way to look at the world, but unfortunately it is something I have difficulty controlling. I was brought up to think all fat=bad so seeing the other side of this is something that I obviously struggle with.

I am sorry I triggered you, piuma, and you definitely shouldn't be apologising to me. You are entitled to your opinion as is everyone else. I am glad you and Sammy decided to tell me about being verbally abused for being the way you are, I can't imagine how awful that must be for you. I am half Egyptian on my dad's side and am physically very similar to him, which means my nose is well, shall we say a bit larger than average. I was bullied quite a bit in school for this (because it makes me look 'foreign') and I never really got over that, so I'm so sorry that this happens to you, no one deserves to be treated that way. I understand about having poor self control, I am exactly the same with things like drinking and drugs.

I would like to point out that I never said my overweight friends disgust me. Furthermore, overweight people DON'T disgust me, it's the Fat itself that does. The aversion to fat is more of a detached thing I experience when watching TV or a film, for example. I could never find my friends or anyone I care about anything but beautiful.

In response to sammy:

1) You make a valid point, I do not know that all overweight people don't try to lose it. I was thinking in reference to a few people I know personally.

2)No, because I know that anorexia is not about 'not making an effort' to eat. It is actually incredibly difficult and requires a lot of pain and restraint and not to eat.

I definitely agree with what Josh said, because if I had not said anything today and kept my views quiet, I never would have got to hear the other side of the story. You have definitely given me something to think about.

Ruth, those comments that people make about you are insensitive and disgusting. I've had people say similar things to me in the past, and it's humiliating and unnecessary. I actually agree with you that it is more socially acceptable to be overweight, in Britain anyway. Obviously not obese, but like someone said here, majority of the population are slightly overweight. And you never hear men talking about how much they love a girl with a flat chest and no bum, or whatever. The vast majority of those who idealise being thin are female, and a minority of females at that.

[Sammy]

Thankyou for your last post, seeing you have more understanding and compassion for someone overweight makes me feel better and I appreciate you taking the time to put this down - it takes a lot for someone to admit something in their thinking is or was wrong and then try to see the other side.

I still disagree about the whole being overweight is socially acceptable - only when you step in our shoes and spend a day in our lives being shunned can you understand how so unsocially acceptable it is. Even amongst the few friends I've made, I would receive the littlest attention because people are embarassed to be seen with me. That doesn't mean they don't care about me, I know they do, but I also know they choose to spend more time with their thinner friends who fit in.

Even my best friend of 12 yrs who I love to bits didn't choose me as a bridesmaid at her wedding and I know it is because she wanted the perfect photo's.

I'd certainly like to know where you get the idea that being overweight is socially acceptable though, even in the work industry an overweight person would find it much more challenging to work their way up the career ladder due to the negative impact their weight has on others before they have even had a chance to put their case forwards.

[piuma]

awwwww gothic, i feel so ahsamed, you are very sweet in not attackingme, as i felt thats how i came across in my first post. im sorry, again, im in a silly place right now. anyway i think i was already triggered b4 i read yours. kind of a kick the cat thing???

anyway just wanted to say i totaly agree with josh as well, i think this actually been healthy debate even if i did get a little more trigered, i dealt with it, and even had a shower !!!!! result!!! i didnt resort to unhealthy behavious so in a way thankyou!!! im sorry again.

also just wanted to say my t is always saying that there is a fine line between anorexia and binge eating.

and obviously bulimia and compulsive eating.

all stem from pyshological issues. and apparently binge eating and anorexia are the two ones with body dysmorphia, a lot of extreemly big do what i do and mentally cut the weight off in the head, cant see it. apparently when showed images, (anorexics and binge eaters) of certain things they all related the same way, where as people without the ed would see two things or mixed, there seemed to be a very definate link.

i spen all my time hating food and wishing i could stop eat, even though i very often dont get hungry, not unless ive been ona starvation thingy. where as i guess someone the other way would spend they're time possibly fatasicing about food but not allowing themselves it, opr so im told by a friend of mine who is anorexic. we spend a lot of time together. she is horrified sometimes by what i can consume on a binge. she also, hates the thought that i can spend so much time puring and using lax, and other not healthy things, and i get get mad with her, for constantly, measuring out every little thing, organising it on the plate so its just so. its sooo hard for her. and yet we're good mates. lol. um anyway ive rambled xxxx

[Sammy]

Yep i also do the starving then binging thing, on occasions purging too, and this is a very unhealthy lifestyle for me especially considering my diabetes. Very hard to get blood sugars leveled out when you swing from one extreme to the other. It's like this swing from feeling the need to fill a hole using food to comfort myself, to feeling guilty about food and eating, hating myself and my body, being disgusted with myself and so then starving myself or if I fail that purging myself. I don't own a mirror or weighing scales because I can't even bear to see myself and what I look like or look at how much I weigh.

Even when I lost 2 stone recently and am still losing it, I still see myself as the same fat, ugly, hideous monster - I can't imagine ever seeing myself as something different because I've spent so long being told all the bad things and called names by even perfect strangers that it's now ingrained into me.

I've always said that I also think I have body dysmorphia because I know without a doubt that regardless of how I ever look in the mirror I only see myself as a big lump of lard and I always will regardless of how much weight I lose and that if I had enough money for surgery I'd definately become addicted to changing myself.

Yes I too fantasise about cutting pieces of myself away, have talked about it to Martin and to doctors and social workers. This happens for a number of reasons - sometimes it's the fat I want to cut away, sometimes it's because of the cysts and absesses I get that I want to cut away, sometimes it's because of the scars on my arms and I want my arm amputated or to cut it off myself, and sometimes when I self harm it is because of the absolute self loathing I have for my body that I hack at it.

[Data]

I agree with Joshua, I think that talking about your feelings is constructive.

Roses, I applaud your empathetic attitude towards Gothic Angel, you can see that although her views trigger many, she is uncomfortable with them and that is why she wants to discuss it.

Sammy, I am sorry you feel like that about yourself.

Gothic Angel, black-and-white thinking is something that I have struggled with and to want support to explore this is admirable. I hope you continue to post about things that trouble you.

[Ruth24]

I'm sorry Sammy that i upset you. It really is nothing personal and it was not my intenjtion. This is a very triggering topic, especially for those with ED.

Gothic angel posted this knowing that her views are slightly twisted, so lets not argue as to who has it worst, underweight/overweight. We both have a shite time-and no i can't buy clothes in my size because they don't make them! also magazines slate celebrities when they get too thin. No winners! Anyway, lets try and keep on track.

I am really proud of gothic angel for posting about this and has given me the guts to start a new topic (which i will do when i have finished writing this).

I hope that you get a lot out of this thread gothic angel. You have been misinterpreted, i think. Its the fat you hate, not the actual people. i can totally empathyse with that. The idea of getting fat scares me to hell but i have no understanding of why. I'm hoping i get a lot out of this topic too. I want to understand why fat scares me! so people, please continue to post with your thoughts, and try not to take the fact that gothic angel hates fat personally. This thread is not an attack on fat people, it is gothic angel addressing her issues.

[Jaimie_CS]

meme, trigger warnings were added after!

And would it be ok for me to be racist if I put up trigger warnings?

I'd like to point out something here too, you only hate fat people that complain about their weight but do nothing about it.

1) How do you know they do nothing about it?

2) Would you say you hate an anorexic who doesn't make effort to eat?

And yes it is the same, because you'll find MOST severely overweight people have an undiagnosed eating disorder - it's called compulsive eating disorder and it's caused by underlying psychological and emotional issues just like with anorexia. How invalidating and hurtful would it be to tell an anorexic to stop moaning and just eat something?

And it's the same for those overweight people that can't just stop eating and excercise and lose weight.

Then you have more overweight people who are overweight due to lack of being educated about how to have a healthy lifestyle.

Oh yeah then you have the ones that weight soars because of medication and nothing they do can make them lose the weight, have you heard of depakote? It increases your appetite so that you feel hungry all the time, or what about all the anti psychotics that make you pile on weight? And yes insulin makes you put on weight too.

So ok, after we rule out all the overweight people that are that way because of an eating disorder, a food addiction, being uneducated about healthy lifestyle and because of medication - how many are we left with?

Do you not think that these people deserve some compassion and understanding for what they are going through? Do you think they enjoy being overweight? Do you think they feel wonderful about themselves?

Just in my case, I can't go out my door alone because every time I go out I am shouted at with abuse about my weight, or snide remarks made to each other (they seem to think I can't hear) about my weight, like urgh look at her or oy fatty lose some weight or oy you fat cow. I can't get a job because I'm terrified of working because EVERY job I've ever had I've suffered the name calling and abuse from most of my colleagues bar a couple of nice ones, even my supervisors would make fun of me. My school life was also hell.

Even family members would have digs at me about my weight, even to this day - my mum, dad, brother and now add to that my fiance's mother.

Do you think I don't already feel bad enough about myself that I need others to point out how disgusting and ugly I am?

But you know, calling them lazy or greedy (I know you didn't use that word) is wrong, because there are many overweight people that do long hours at work, come home, look after house and children etc... and then to be called lazy because they don't do extra exercise is just unfair, they are clearly NOT lazy.

Also to call someone greedy is wrong, because they are not eating from greediness but from a compulsion caused by their emotional state, low self esteem and psychological issues - only worsened by the lack of understanding and compassion by others.

As angel later pointed out, its not fat people themselves so much as their physical fat. i just wanted to add that i'm well acquainted with the horrors overweight people go through, my mum's been overweight since she was pregnant, and it destroys her and she's tried a million times to lose it and she never can somehow.

Ruth I feel offended by you repeating about how you have it worse than fat people and how being overweight is socially acceptable. This is a complete untruth.

Look at the media - how often do you see thin people glamorised and made out to be the thing that people should aim to be like? How many fat people do you see on tv that are glamorised? How often do you see a fat person on tv even? And when you do how do they get represented? Not normally in a very nice role! Or how about in magazines? Don't see them in fashion mags do you?

Angel's not talking about very overweight people, rather people who are only a bit overweight - size 14-16aus.

take your standard tabloid - there's bound to be a story with 'shocking' photos of how thin a starlet has become, how unhealthy it is, how sad they are etc. there will also be an article on a slightly larger starlet, celebrating her curves, how comfortable she is with her body, how its so encouraging to see 'normal' women amongst all the horrid stick figures.

(TRIGGER)

thats the media, now switch to real life. In my group of friends at uni, which is 200-300 people strong, about half the girls could be considered a bit overweight to overweight, their bmi's are probably between 25-27. These girls are never made fun of, they are complimented constantly, they are sexualised, they are respected. (im not saying they dont have problems with their weight, i dont know and its not relevant.) there are 3-5 girls who painfully thin. one i know is anorexic. another i suspect, the others are just naturally very thin (they dont look ill though.) the anorexic girls are humiliated constantly, the things you hear people say about the are truly horrible and they are spoken about like mannequins with no sexuality or personality. the thin girls have to put up with a constant barrage of questions and sly digs about their eating habits. the bigger girls are nasty to them for no other reason that they are naturally very thin. they are rarely sexualised.

the very overweight girls, perhaps 10 of them, are never questioned about their eating or lifestyle habits, but are often (though rarely in earshot) the butt of nasty jokes, usually about sex. These girls however tend to be more included because the boys, while they wont find them attractive, treat them like one of the boys and they are often prized for their drinking abilities etc. (thats a uni culture thing of course.)

However there are no severely overweight girls around and i know there's a good reason for that.

so yes, i agree with angel that being overweight is more socially acceptable, but not severely overweight.

Earlier I asked Gothic about her feelings about o/weight people who were trying to lose the weight. I was in fact trying to get Gothic to look at her reasoning. Yes, it is not nice to say you find o/weight people repulsive but there is a reason behind it. I agree that making a broad statement like this is EXACTLY the same as being a racist or whatever. But it is something Gothic wants to talk about and try and look at becasue she knows it's not normal.

She does not abuse o/weight people, she wants to learn why she feels like this so she can CHANGE. I use the exact same words she does on a regular basis "I want to carve my skin off because I am repulsed by my fatness". I understand repulsion of fat on myself and it is not a huge leap that this could be applied to ALL fat. Thankfully that is not the case for me, but I am sure that Gothic feels plenty bad enough about her feelings and no doubt they are linked to her own self-image.

Can we get this conversation back on track please. If people want to discuss being o/weight or under weight, or they want to talk about people who judge then can I respectuflly request they open another thread.

Roses xxxxx

i think roses interpreted angel the same way i did. i also fantasize about slicing the fat off my body and im not overweight at all.

Gothic angel posted this knowing that her views are slightly twisted, so lets not argue as to who has it worst, underweight/overweight. We both have a shite time-and no i can't buy clothes in my size because they don't make them! also magazines slate celebrities when they get too thin. No winners! Anyway, lets try and keep on track.

overweight and underweight have a shit time of things. so does normal weight. (im not belittling what anyone else goes through or claiming i go through the same thing.)

I'm 175cm and 62kg. I'm a size 10(aus). my bmi is normal, clothes off the rack fit me, men find me attractive.....

but i despise my body.

i pinch the fat around my stomach and wish i could cut it away, i stare at myself in the mirror for long periods every day, loathing every different part of me and the way it looks. i feel incredibly uncomfortable naked around other people and in bed, i do not believe anyone ever finds me attractive, no matter how fiercely they tell me. i do not think i am thin or normal, i think i am hideous.

i am compulsively bulimic, at worst, up to 5 times a day i'll consume 3000+ cal and then purge via vomiting and laxatives. occasionally i'll manage a bout of self control and starve myself for a day or 2. this is how i am the weight i am and its just as unhealthy as being grossly over or underweight. im destroying my body not-so-slowly and it doesnt even work that well.

ruth is right, there are no winners.

[Sammy]

Ruth is right there are no winners! The difference is that her initial post stated clearly that thin people were worse off with regards to socially acceptability and healthwise - this was an undermining statement for overweight people - I stated some facts about that but didn't at any point say that overweight people were worse off, just denied that thin people were - with that said, my statements were proving that we have it just as bad as thin people, I wasn't trying to compete with who was worse off just not allowing the struggles and health problems I have to be undermined.

As you said though lets move on.

[Ruth24]

Sammy, i don't think we will ever know what it will feel like to be in each others shoes. I'm sorry i handled the situation poorly. I have never been overweight so i have no idea what it is like for you. I am so sorry you have to put up with biggoted people laughing and spitting and the fact you hate your body so much saddens me. I think we are at opposite ends of the spectrum, and are extreme with our appearance. i hope one day we can both be happy within our own skin. Its the heart and soul that counts. You have a big heart and a kind soul. That means more to me than outward appearance.

[Sammy]

u2 - can't say much in response am overwhelmed but feel the same sentiments you do. xxx