Bpd Is Too Often Used As An Excuse

[roxy222]

I'm sorry but I didn't read any anger in her post at all - but perhaps I'm missing something. Unless I see evidence that she was angry within her post or she says so herself I have to along the lines that she was not angry and that this is just a projection on to her.

Why I say this is..she had said she has spent some time thinking about this and then worded herself quite well, laying things out in order, there seems to be no confusion, contradictions, shouting, repetitiveness, illiteracy etc...what would indicate anger to me.

there was shouting in her post, caps, and using the term bs suggests anger, as well as the final, statment of an apology followed by a harsh withdrawl, more than anything it feels angry at herself which is a shame, maybe not intended as anger but ceratinly harsh to herself, which like sanc says she may be ill again and well it is a shame to judge oneself so harshly in light on that

also, there would be a difference between posting a thread like this and saying, guys this relates to me this is a personal dicovery, and what she has done which is generalise, which automaticly is goign to provoke reactions of anger from some, especially those who are much younger/newer dx/in crisis etc, which begs the question why act in a way that will provoke others anger if not angry at oneself (unconcious perhaps)?

sorry ruth dont mean to talk about you third perosn but your not in discussion at present, i think its great youv made some kind of realisation, but dont be so hard on yoruself if it doesnt all work to plan, you have every right to compassion and understadning from yourself

arg, im laet, i really have to go to work now!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Sammy]

I got the impression that the capital letters - due to their placement were to accentuate a point rather than to shout.

Like I said though - am not arguing that she might be angry as she may well be - am just saying I won't assume that she is - for now.

[Jaimie_CS]

I think something not being taken into account here is the differences of our combinations of disorders. my bipolar makes certain aspects of my bpd harder to deal with, but i dont suffer the same level of disassociation as others here, for example.

[Sammy]

I was going to just say gem about bipolar - that sometimes unacceptable behaviour is uncontrollable. However we can still do things to help ourselves to prevent outbursts and manic spending sprees etc.. which involve medication and therapy. I'm sure you know of other ways too, but my point being that I think I would be more tolerant of a bipolar persons outbursts etc..if I know that they are doing what they need to to prevent episodes.

I still know that even with treatment, sometimes the treatment fails, whether because meds need tweeking etc...

Also I'd be tolerant of unacceptable behaviour based on delusions and psychosis etc... Because seriously you don't even know what you're doing during those periods. This again of course is based on being aware of diagnosis and doing all you can to prevent episodes by taking medication.

Also by talking about responsibility and accountability that is not to say that I dislike the people that don't - just that I don't like the behaviour and won't say there there it's not your fault to that said behaviour.

[iwonder]

Hi...

Well i just find it all just so confussing. I just wish that some one could tell me directly! I just keep climbing the mountain to get to the top and when i get there, there's another to climb...how long do you keep climbing the mountains....is it time to stop. I read so much on this site...and not sure if it helps or hinders me. Personally, i know one day i will stop climbing, i'm so tired of this roller coaster. Very confussed

[Wobbles]

My guess mirror, is to be able to get to a stage where we can enjoy the journey up the mountains without worrying about when or if or how we'll ever get to the top. Being able to stop at each stage, take a good look around, learn from mistakes, look back on the good and bad parts, take a deep breath and have a little rest before starting the next journey. Hopefully, if we're lucky, we'll have a bunch of people doing the climb with us who'll be there for us to lean on when we're tired, and who will lean on us from time to time.

[iwonder]

My guess mirror, is to be able to get to a stage where we can enjoy the journey up the mountains without worrying about when or if or how we'll ever get to the top. Being able to stop at each stage, take a good look around, learn from mistakes, look back on the good and bad parts, take a deep breath and have a little rest before starting the next journey. Hopefully, if we're lucky, we'll have a bunch of people doing the climb with us who'll be there for us to lean on when we're tired, and who will lean on us from time to time.

Hi,

Yes...iv'e done that,still do. I'm 52, it's been a long climb. How do you get over loosing your son (suicide) and your partner of 9 years,leaving you 6 months later.....

[Roses]

I am just me.

[Sammy]

Mirror could I advise you to start a thread about this please? I don't mean to be rude, but I think you might get a lot of advice and support if people are aware of your questions and issues - not everyone reads this thread so don't get the opportunity to help you.

[Barebones]

Ruth, good post

Its funny though it seems that some are able to read beyond the screen and read and tap in ruths mind in how she posts. I guess thats what? special, we can read another persons typing words which is black and white, and totaly read in between the words.

Good to hear from you ruth, glad you have been thinking and taking time to communicate while in holiday.

Is there such thing as a forensic expert in reading typed words? and knowing the person if irate or angry or shouting or relaxed or anyone got a clue on that?

many have come out with good stuff here, to me anyway.

xx

[Sammy]

Barebones if you know the person typing you can often see small indications of the persons mood (not every possible mood - but anger, irritation, happy etc...)

For example, If I know someone is normally quite articulate for the majority of the time and then posts a thread that is very confusing and spelling errors and chaotic I can normally deduct from that they are distressed in some way - or not feeling well. Of course you have to combine content with writing style to figure this out and even then it's not always accurate. They may just be in a rush to go out and posting fast, they could be dissociating, they could have broken a finger, been drinking etc...

Basically if I see someones writing style change suddenly I will suspect something is wrong even if I'm not sure what. I find that often I am quite accurate in 'guessing' the mood by combining words said, words that seem intentionally not said (reading between the lines) and writing style of those I have come to recognise and know.

[iwonder]

Mirror could I advise you to start a thread about this please? I don't mean to be rude, but I think you might get a lot of advice and support if people are aware of your questions and issues - not everyone reads this thread so don't get the opportunity to help you.

Hi

Thanks. I don't want to be rude either, but i can't c the point....i'm beyond it

[Barebones]

Hi Sammy, i hear you on this, i am actually skeptical in this, if it was true, them half the forum wouldn't actually misread or take offence in what i say. Sometimes i have to explain and say, i am sitting here, i have no anger, i am not thumping on the keyboards in an exagerated way, but some tap into my brain and they take words and how its expressed in full value of a person.

Not sure, but i have no ability in reading whats on the screen other than whats in my face, does that sound like i am being stupid? or am i being patronising? or ignorant? or lack understanding? or lack being coherant? or lack being consistent?, there is so many words out there, i am finding since coming back, its a word contest or we have magical powers in true understanding of how a person is coming across in typed words or of expression of words which some people use and only know.

See, i know that i am not totaly explaining myself here, as i for me no words can show what i mean or understanding or feel. Some time ago i used pictures, lyrics to communicate how i was feeling, that actually fared better most times than me typing.

If what you say was true, then there wouldnt be communication probs or misreading or arguements or people having to explain and other stuff.

A little insight in me, i am erratic in what i write in my postings, i show lack of education in others apparently, due to my posts, as its not perfect grammer or layed out properly, my spelling can be pretty bad if i don't put effort in, oh there is so much what i lack in communication on the screen. Actually it aint even funny, but i have ability to laugh at myself for this, this actually continues in RL aswell, i am misjudged in many ways.

The end of what i am trying to get at, what ever words you use, one person will understand meaning, another will take it a diffrent way. There is no full proof of really seeing what is on a screen unless a person tries to explain.

Bollocks, this is all off subject, but it has shown you, some thought she was angry, some didnt, some thought her wording was good and some didnt. No one can win on here. Your dammed if you do, ur dammed if you dont.

just ignore me, my own fault in me feeling this way. No excuse, its a nothing really.

[Sammy]

Barebones there are some people I do find hard to 'read' online with styles and offline with facial expressions and body motions. That doesn't stop the fact that with others I can though.

I always find you honest and insightful - but yes I find it hard to 'read' whether you are angry or upset or not and have to go solely on what you have written rather than it's tone or style. That's nothing against you, nor is it a problem because if I feel the need I can just ask you right?

Not everyone is able to 'read' what's going on with someone from tone or style either and sometimes even those that do can get it wrong - as I said it's not always accurate because sometimes there can be more than one reason why someone would change their style or tone.

Also theirs this whole thing of projection and our own emotions that can get in the way of correctly assessing someones mood just like in real life.

Also I think there are lots of reasons why someone might have difficulty with things like grammar and spellings that don't always come down to lack of education, and even when it is due to lack of education that doesn't make them less intelligent as academic intelligence is just one type of intelligence. I think there are something like 7 different types?

[Barebones]

You made very good sense there sammy, thanks for helping me alittle on this.

xxx

[placebo69a]

As far as reading emotions out of text is concerned: Most people can rely on four strategies to express happiness versus sadness, including disagreement (or agreement in case of happiness), negative affect terms (like using a word with bad connotation instead of a more neutral term - e.g "you're weird" instead of "you're silly/funny"), punctuation, and verbosity. Contrary to conventional wisdom, most communication partners readily distinguish between positive and negative valence (the innate attraction or aversion) emotional communicators in only a text-based context.

It's not only possible, it's something most people do. This is not to say that the results are always accurate or remain objective. It's quite possible that a person in a dark mood, for instance, would pay attention only to negative valence emotional communicators and ignore positive valence ones.

The point being - You can "read" people's emotions out of text alone. It's a natural skill and it can be improved with training. This is not my opinion, but scientific fact. You can look up the relevant articles if you want. It's a field of psychology called computer-mediated interactions or sometimes human factors in computing systems.

[Barebones]

Thanks placebo, science itself hold know fact, its open field, for open mindness and explore. What i can read today will change tomorrow, u understand? true scienetist will allways be open to suggestion and learn beyond there own scope and not manipulate there findings.

Sry, its not that clear cut.

If i say i am so HAPPYYYYY!!!!, for fact do u know that unless i tell you?

Do u know aswell, lol computer systems, yet again human imput, peeps allways blame electic lol or something other than themselves. So forgive me, if i am not bought into this.

Placebo, i really do take in what you say, i find alot what you say interesting, to me its refreshing. I like your style, opps! but nope, i just can't read your mind. I allso tried to learn not to read to much between words and lines and hidden meanings. och i dont know.

xx

[Ruth24]

Hi guys, sorry I;ve not been able to reply. Still on holiday and don't get back till sunday, so have t keep this brief.

Thanks for everyone to take time to reply,. i wrote the topic during a bout of insomnia so if there was any anger there that would have been the cause, grrrrrrr, insomnia.

I realise i have offended people here, but do you really know why you are offended? i am by no means saying BPD does not exist, I am not invalidating the severity it has on out emotions and lives. I am all too aware that the impulisveness and mood swings and self hatred can be unbearable to the point where i have tried suidide. Do not think i am belittling BPD.

Neither have i had a mini miraculous recovery. God that woud be great though eh?

I forgot my diary so i think i was just thinking uout loud. But i do stand by my beliefs.

I don't condone any of my inappropriate behaviour and say, "couldn't help it, i have BPD" When i was on a psych ward and first diagnosed i was told that taking responsibility was one of the first steps to recovery. And, i still feel recovery is possible. not very many people over the age of 60 still display BPD symptoms.

Somebody said on this thread soething i found very interesting (sorry can't remember who it was).It got me thinking. Take for an example (hypothetical) a middle ages man, heavy drinker, beats his wife and kids on a regular basis. His son goes to school black and blue and he has a toddler who has already fractured 4 bones. Personally i am thinking, "jings, what a horrible man, he shuld be locked up"

But what if you chuck BPD into the equation? What if this hideous middle aged drunken child and wife beater was abused severly as a child? What if they themselves suffered from BPD and argued the case that their aggression or lack of control is all to do with BPD? Would we be so quick to judge this man now? I sure as hell would!!

Yes, BPD is hideous and makes things incredibly hard. It explains our extreme emotions but in no way could it ever be used to excuse our reactions to these emotions. Our reactions to emotions are within our control and responsibility must be taken-and taking responsibility is one of the hardest things i have ever had to do. Acknowledging that I chose to react in that way, I chose to do those thimgs, say those things. BPD made me feel as though as i had no choice, but looking back, I did have control.

From what i have read, I think sammy and i are on the same wavelength here.

Sit back and ask yourself why this post makes you angry?

[sanctuary]

Ruth,

Having BPD does not give you the right to pass judgement like this. Infact, you should know better. Really, who are you trying to help here? If you were being altruistic about it then I could understand, however I beleive only you are benefiting from this delivery of personal opinion.

Using your own example, I would not condone any behaviour that hurts another even if they had BPD so I don't know why you are making such sweeping statements that indirectly apply to me as a bonified BPD sufferer.

Infact, the reason I am angry (now, I wasn't before) is because you are sitting up there on your soapbox of being 'okay' and judging everyone else with the disorder based on your own personal experience. It cannot be applied to everyone with the diagnosis and as others have said, there are people with more than just BPD to contend with.

There is neurobiological evidence to suggest that there are brain factors that can be attributed to people with BPD and although therapy can help to change behaviour, overcoming brain differences is never going to be that easy. Controlling behaviour is not a choice in the simple way that you suggest. infact, it is through lack of control that I have suffered the most (and people around me too)

Accountability has never been a problem for me since I was diagnosed. I accept responsibility for my actions however to say that I actually had control over my actions thereby suggesting I had a choice is a flagrant diregard for the condition.

You have oversimplified your point and to suggest you were in control but acted out anyway using BPD as an excuse says more about you than it does about me.

I hope you sit back and realise that your personal revelations are just that. Personal. Any respect I had for you has, for now, vanished under the weight of your post title and simplification of what is a real struggle for even those with the best insight and intentions.

I hope your recovery continues in the direction it is going as you appear to be able to control it now. Well done.

[rmorgan_uk]

I do agree with you it is a reason, but not an 'excuse'. However the behaviour and emotional patterns start before the diagnosis of BPD.

At the moment it seems so covered in anger that would suggest that you look at your emotional side as you seem to be lashing out at others rather than dealing with your own anger.

I have to agree with this authough bdp has been mentioned during sessions with my psycologist, i dont have an official diagnosis.

while i totaly agree we have to take responsibility for our own actions it does not mean to say that we can always be in control. I have on several occasions picked up a blade and slashed at my wrist, only after i had finished did i realise what i had done. nobody else did this to me so yes i am responsible but i was basically oblivious to what i was doing untill after the fact.

ruth i feel guilt every day at the things i have said and done, but to tar all people with the same brush i wrong.

i do get the impression that this topic was designed to get reactions like this from people, again i believe this to unproductive and could also be damaging to certain people.

[foreverborderline]

Hmmm , why does this make me angry Ruth ? Let's start with the fact that you are lumping all Borderlines together just because YOU think it is an excuse for YOU ! Ruth you want to know what I think ? Too bad if you don't cause I'm gonna tell you anyway ... I think you created this post so that you WOULD make people angry , its OK though because I often do the same and that is saying things that you know will cause drama and make people angry because you want that drama , it is like a drug - and you wanna get high off of it , don't ya Ruth ? BPD behaviors are real and they are REASONS for my actions and NEVER an excuse ... I don't go around saying " Oh, not my fault, I am borderline " But I also do not overly apologize for my actions .. if a CANCER patient got sick would we tell them it was an excuse not to deal with life ? Same thing with BPD , we act the way we do because often we cannot stop ourselves - Ruth , someone has been messing with your head , accept that you are borderline and get off of the "excuse " argument.

[piuma]

I would just like to say that although i think Ruth may have written this in frustration, i also no that we do have to take responsibility for ourselves, the things i have done in my life were my choice. they may have been influenced by the bpd, but i guess i couldnt have chosen a different route.

for eg, i got very hot headed tonight, i didnt deal with it appropriatly, but what i did realise after is, i could have handled it very differently. yes BPD means we respond to things especially stress, in an extreme way often. still it is my responsiility.

Also Ruth did say that she to had been this way, so it wasnt making out that she was a saint, or that she was recovered. far from it. you can see the struggles she has just from reading her post, but, i think for her maybe she has found that clarity she needs to try and begin to get better. that doesnt mean that she wont still have her bad days or slip ups.

forever i can see your anger, and i do empathise with it. i read this originally when i was in a bad place, it did upset me, i would have replied and more than likely got angry like you feel now, but, i happen to have spokent o Ruth a few times, and as i like her, it made me go away and think about it, hense the late reply. and after thought,i see her point, i think you need to blot out the anger her in her post and try and read it as someone who is struggling themseleves but has found something to cling onto, some hope of getting better. rather than, just see what appears on the outside to be an attack.

anyway just my opinion, and you can take it or leave it. i feel impartial to this now, and im glad by that. i wish i could have done this with other posts.

[foreverborderline]

Piuma - I think that is why I reacted so , I do not know Ruth and when I hear people ( borderline or not) say that word "excuse" it just makes me so angry - I take more responsibility for my life now than I used to but still feel very strongly that it is not an excuse .. bpd is there and it causes me to act out a lot of the time and that is just the way it is.

[piuma]

aye and i do it frequently hun, i think this why i didnt reply straight away. :)

[Barebones]

Hi ruth, thanks for coming back and explaining a bit more on your journey with this, u make some valid points.

My word for past two days is, your dammed if you do and your dammed if you dont.

Looking back since your new post, the reaction is again mix bag, and showing up some prunes to the plums. This topic reminds me of myers post, i think some need to step back like i have been told to do and realise what they have said in here and what they have said on a psychopath topic.

So again ruth thanks for showing a little of the road your on just now.

xx hope you aint chasing no haggis around and terorising them!