Moonshine Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 I'm in a place where i want to actively do things to make myself better. This has not happened for a good few years so i'm suspecting that therapy is working for me. If anything purely because it gives me a place to think and be (however hard it is for that to be robbed from me week after week at the end of the session ). So i've been reading around and basically the road to recovery seems to be listening to the pain and allowing it to be and then loving and accepting it. And.....I have absolutely no idea what this means, let alone how this can be done!! I'm so befuzzled! I feel the pain as a deep ache in my chest. It is pretty much a physical sensation. It doesn't really have anything to say except *pain* and to be honest it is very tiring having to cope with the feeling of being punched in the chest all the time, when i'm not exactly sure how it make things better! I don't want this post to sound like i don't believe it. I know my major problem is disconnection. I've been disconnected from any real feelings since i was 11yrs old and because of this i have many years that i simply don't remember anything about. And i mean that quite literally. So i know i have a lot of layers to break down but not a clue how to do it. They should really offer a step by step instruction booklet rather than abstract ideas of listening to your inner childs wants and needs. (haha i don't know who 'they' are but you know what i mean!) I haven't a clue how to listen, does that mean that i don't have any needs? Everyone says 'trust the therapy process', what exactly does that mean? I'm a do-er, i like being in control, just sitting back and going with the flow isn't my style. If the key is to unlock the pain then i'm up for that, just tell me how to do it and give me a isolated room all on my own where i have the time and space to let it all explode. I'm so confused. I don't like being confused. It makes me angry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dazhiki Posted November 1, 2009 Report Share Posted November 1, 2009 well i know how you feel, it has taken me a lot of time to figur this out and i think i've got it. for me everytime i feel the pain coming in stead of bowing to the blow of it i kind of just close my eyes and embrace it. like you know getting a slap on the cheak and then offering it the other one. kind of medifore. like when i get my flashbacks i use to freez everytime and go into the time and it would take me hours to get back so in stead of fighting the flash back i kind of sat back and watched listened and aknowleged that this is how i feel about it and i it won´t change until i forgive the memory that is comeing at me and it has helped me get intouche with my feelings. like some memories have stopped comeing so much after i've forgiven them like my mind is at ease finally with the memory in paticuler but everytime i fight it it seems to be that much worse you know. so when the next wave comes let it wash you in sted of riding the wave you know is this making any sense to you ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
piuma Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 sounds like a lot of realization. i know the physical pain thing. and i also hate bein confuzzled. xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 I don't want this post to sound like i don't believe it. I know my major problem is disconnection. I've been disconnected from any real feelings since i was 11yrs old and because of this i have many years that i simply don't remember anything about. And i mean that quite literally. So i know i have a lot of layers to break down but not a clue how to do it. They should really offer a step by step instruction booklet rather than abstract ideas of listening to your inner childs wants and needs. (haha i don't know who 'they' are but you know what i mean!) I haven't a clue how to listen, does that mean that i don't have any needs? Everyone says 'trust the therapy process', what exactly does that mean? I'm a do-er, i like being in control, just sitting back and going with the flow isn't my style. If the key is to unlock the pain then i'm up for that, just tell me how to do it and give me a isolated room all on my own where i have the time and space to let it all explode. I'm so confused. I don't like being confused. It makes me angry. i could have written all of that myself a few months ago.... can i ask what kinda t you are doing - cos of my control freakish nature i chose client centred humanistic t - where the answers all come from me, they are merely coaxed out by my t... no rules to follw (which i would only rebel against) mostly we are doing reconnecting with feelings and this approach is working really well for me... what i have learnt is that for me personally i cant just learn how to handle one feeling and expect this approach to work for all the others... each one has to be relearnt individually... *sigh* dunno if any of that will help you at all... hope so... good luck with it all - i know how shitty dealing with feelings can be sometimes... Kath xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 2, 2009 Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Hi moonshine Can you tell me what the name of the type of therapy you are having is please? That might help me answer your question, ta! Therapy is the place that you would hopefully be having those experiences you describe, but it will depend greatly on what type you are having how much focus they actually give to the deeper emotions and the roots of those emotions. You have mentioned in previous posts that you dissociate and have a very hard time trusting your T. Dissociation, as you probably know, is the purest form of 'not feeling' that the body can produce - its a way to shut off pain that we cannot control, and is learnt very early in life. People who dissociate may even forget the events that put it there. It may be that your difficulty trusting comes from the same place, and that you have a deep seated sense that it is not safe to feel, or safe to need others or let others in. Certain therapies would try to get to the root of what put those barriers in place, and help you (gradually) come to push past them, at your own pace. In cases of dissociation, it is common to see that the person takes many months before they even feel able to trust the therapist - and it is only once this happens that the deeper work can truly begin. Trust is organic - you have said you have started to feel you like her but also hate her sometimes. You are working through a REAL relationship, and that is extremely important and, though it may not feel like it, a good sign. You are working through the very issues that block you from trusting, simply by being with him / her in each session. Its frustrating, because we want to feel and see that we are forging ahead. In fact you are, but not necessarily in the way that you were looking for. The more noticeable changes come later, once that foundation is built. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted November 2, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 2, 2009 Dazhiki - that makes a lot of sense. I did that with some bad memories i had with bullies at school, i just went over and over it in my head until i desensitized myself from it all. The difference between that situation and now is that i don't have any memories or flashbacks as such, i just have the intense pain feeling. how do you cope with embracing the emotion when you are at work or in the middle of people? I can't seem to let the lid off my emotions at one point then keep it on at others, it is either all off or stuck tight. I really appreciate you sharing your experiences with me, any further advice re: my questions will be much appreciated! Piuma - i have bursts of realizations amid masses of self-pity, self-destruction and general bad behaviour! Thanks for your support and understanding, being confuzzled is the worst! I avoid it at all costs! Kath - oh thankyou it is good to talk to someone who is going down the road from me (hopefully!). My t is doing psychoanalytical psychotherapy i think. I say i think because it isn't something i have discussed with her much, and my family made me the initial appt with the therapy centre so it wasn't one i especially choose or anything. It sounds like your therapy is close to mine, my t won't give me any answers but she will ask me how it feels and then kinda join the dots (if you know what i mean). My t says even if she could give me all the answers i'd just rebel against them and feel as though she is trying to control me, which is absolutely correct but very hard to hear because i also just want quick and easy answers! How exactly are you reconnecting with your feelings? What kinda approach are you doing? My therapist takes instances that happen in therapy and then pulls them apart to see why i acted a certain way or asks me about my week and then analyses bits of behaviour from that. It is okay because it has identified my huge need to control, my massive dissociation, my anger, and utter fear but i don't exactly see how it is helping to solve these problems. These behaviours and feelings are very fundamental, i honestly don't think just because i understand retrospectively why i do something it means i can change it, because honestly i act before i think most of the time. Maybe i'm still in early days in therapy for this? Thanks for your reply, it is really good to hear from someone in the midst of similar therapy as i am. Any experiences or help or advice would be really appreciated!! Ross - thankyou for taking the time to write such a detailed and thoughtful response. As you will have no doubt have read already i'm assuming i'm doing psychoanalytical psychotherapy. Basically it is the one that examines the relationship with the therapist and then extrapolates that out to general life. I had a big problem understanding this when she first attempted to explain it to me because i feel our relationship is so artificial because a) i don't know anything about her and i'm not doing my usual making her like me senario (which is surprising really). But with time i've realised she gets a lot from really not a lot although she does trigger me a lot so that is probably why she 'gets it'. My therapy is focused on deeper emotions (i think), she keeps eluding to the fact that every so often we touch a raw nerve but for me it is far too sporadic to matter which is why i'd like to help make things faster. I think my problem is i don't have any reason to feel the pain i do, so there isn't any trauma to talk about and 'get over' (i don't mean that to sound blase but i'm unsure how to word it properly). I have horrid dissociation, and that is part of the problem because the minute my therapist gets anywhere scary i zone out and nothing connects and i can barely speak. I don't really understand why this happens but it causes difficulties. That is after she has gotten through my mountain of defense mechanism layers. Honestly i don't have a chance do i?! What you say about dissociation is really thought-provoking, i know by the age of approx 11 i had managed to shut off my feelings pretty much altogther but i don't know why. That really confuses me and i feel it kinda invalidates everything i feel, if i had something bad happen to me then i'd understand if i had these difficulties but i'm your run of the mill person - you couldn't pick me out in a crowd! How exactly do certain therapies get to the root of the problem because at the moment i'm treading water and i'm wanting to push onwards but no idea how to. I've been in therapy for a yr now and honestly i don't feel we are getting anywhere. Btw i do discuss this with her, i even asked her if i needed therapy, and she said she'd never 'keep' someone in therapy that didn't need it. Maybe it is my black and white thinking but i want clear cut developments. This relationship i have with my t doesn't feel very real because i come to her, it is 50mins per wk, it has a definate end time, she tells me nothing about herself, i act very childish when i'm in session because she pushes me buttons. None of these things do i allow to happen in real life. Please don't think i'm discounting what you are saying to me, i do hear you but my instinctive nature is too put my hands over my ears and yell 'i'm not listening!!'. I just don't like hearing what i don't want to hear. But i am listening. Oh gosh i think i've said all the wrong things now.... , thank you for taking the time to reply to my post. If you have any further advice or reply please do, i really do want to get past this awful rut i'm in, but it is always a confliction in my head. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Hi moonshine Sry for a long reply, you said lots in there. I felt a bit sad though that you seemed to dismiss yourself in a lot of ways though, and so that got me wanting to write all of this stuff lol: Have you looked at the role of invalidation in your childhood? There is a good link HERE that explains what invalidation is. You do not need to have suffered obvious abuse to develop emotional problems. So many people think they have to have been sexually or physically or obviously emotionally abused to 'get' a mental health problem, but in fact there are far more subtle underpinnings to it and are as wide and varied as there are stars in the sky. Invalidation is a very subtle and usually, invisiable way that this can happen, and yes it leads to the shutting down of emotion and the inability to handle distress. Yet when you look back on childhood, you will not see 'obvious' - that is, 'movie worthy' abuse. Some people ARE terribly abused, and go on to develop mental health problems, but it is not abuse ONLY that causes MH problems. Take a look at that invalidation link and see if anything rings any bells ... Some people look back on childhood and remember being praised and told how wonderful they were. For some, there is a subtle difference between genuine praise combined with acceptance, and praise combined with withdrawal of affection or praise when they were being 'less than perfect'. The person remembers the warm glow of praise, and of being special to one parent or other, and not so much the sensation that they had to stifle a lot of their other emotions because they did not fit into the 'perfect' image they were expected to. Their talents, abilities or looks were praised, but their emotions may have been looked on as incovenient, imperfect. It sets a person up to always want others to like, praise or admire them and stops them from being truly genuine and open. They may feel empty and disconnected without knowing why. This is only one path, to the one 'issue' of always needing people to like and admire you. There are many more central issues and many paths to them on top of that, which is hopefully why you can see that trying to find the 'one' event will prove frustrating and self-invalidating. Also, it sounds like you are dismissing the role of the bullying in your life. That actually IS an episode of abuse, and researchers now know that bullying can lead to complex post traumatic disorder. The problem is that so many people are invalidating about experiences of bullying - "you brought it on yourself; just ignore them; why dont you stand up for yourself; its normal, everyone experiences it; dont be such a wet weak" and so on. If you have been invalidated consistently throughout life, this furhter invalidation of your feelings about the bullying will seem completely normal, and you may even buy into it and blame yourself - "If only i was stronger, If only I could control my emotions better, If only I was a better person". All of this is very much what happened to me, because I was bullied non stop for 4 years and it followed me into adulthood. I dream about it almost every night (a symptom of post traumatic stress), despite how "normal and trivial" it apparently is. I know that psychoanalysis has a bit of a reputation for looking at emotions, without being emotional in itself. Some people can find the constant interpretation and blaming of transference for reactions to the therapist as ALSO invalidating - it can make you feel like "why cant my feelings just be my feelings?". It is thought to be very helpful, but yes does take years to work. I can fully understand your frustration - I have been having schema therapy (another emotions focused therapy) for a year and a half and am only just seeing chinks of light breaking through. I have been through several stages of "just get on with it!" so can relate very much to the feeling. But I have tried many medications, and many other types of therapy, including CBT for 3 years, with no success. Ive tried the 'quick stuff' and it hasnt worked, so for me it was time to peel back the layers of trying to only see my past through a rosy haze of self blame, striving for perfection and "she did the best she could, she was having a terrible life too". I wasnt obviously abused either, but my therapy has helped me see that I was invalidated almost all the time. Like you, I have extreme trouble with processing and expressing feelings. I have had many MH diagnoses. Im not saying that any of these things are you - in fact they are mostly me - but what I was trying to do was show that there are much more subtle paths to emotional problems than just obvious abuse. Especially if you have been invalidated, you may still be invalidating yourself by saying "I was never abused, I have no right to feel this way", keeping the cycle going. To come to the feeling of not feeling connected to your T. If you are still very much emotionally bunged up, then you will not feel connected. That connection can only come when you have been able to truly let out all those parts of yourself you are afraid of letting out, BUT ALSO seeing them calmly and caringly accepted by your T. If they come out, and then s/he tells you it was just transference, or some interpretation, that will make you want to run back inside your shell. Real connection is real connection, it cant be faked through a therapy technique. If your T isnt treating your emotions as just that - emotions, this may be why you do not feel any connection. But it may also be because you still do not trust and feel safe enough to really let him or her see the 'real you'. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted November 3, 2009 Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Kath - oh thankyou it is good to talk to someone who is going down the road from me (hopefully!). My t is doing psychoanalytical psychotherapy i think. I say i think because it isn't something i have discussed with her much, and my family made me the initial appt with the therapy centre so it wasn't one i especially choose or anything. It sounds like your therapy is close to mine, my t won't give me any answers but she will ask me how it feels and then kinda join the dots (if you know what i mean). My t says even if she could give me all the answers i'd just rebel against them and feel as though she is trying to control me, which is absolutely correct but very hard to hear because i also just want quick and easy answers! How exactly are you reconnecting with your feelings? What kinda approach are you doing? My therapist takes instances that happen in therapy and then pulls them apart to see why i acted a certain way or asks me about my week and then analyses bits of behaviour from that. It is okay because it has identified my huge need to control, my massive dissociation, my anger, and utter fear but i don't exactly see how it is helping to solve these problems. These behaviours and feelings are very fundamental, i honestly don't think just because i understand retrospectively why i do something it means i can change it, because honestly i act before i think most of the time. Maybe i'm still in early days in therapy for this? Thanks for your reply, it is really good to hear from someone in the midst of similar therapy as i am. Any experiences or help or advice would be really appreciated!! we do pretty much the - what has happened this week and discuss it all - she probes about how i felt emotionally and physically in a situation. we talk alot about invalidation as i suffered alot of that growing up... sometimes we try and go back to find out why stuff triggers me - but mostly we just try and deal with the feelings as they happen... we used to do a lot of her reading stuff i have written and how i felt about the situation i was writing about and also how i felt when writing it... this helps loads... i also have a load of relationship and control and all sorts of those problems, but we are only doing feelings at the moment as we feel that i really need to get this sorted before i can even start on all the rest of it... frustrating as i am not patient, but i have to agree that this is the correct way to go for me... gonna be a long road - but as i am doing it privately - there is no limit on time (unless i go broke!) the basic fundamental thing i have learned is that each feeling has to be relearned... just cos i am happy sitting with anger does not mean i can try the same approach with say frustration... it is hard for me to realise that just cos i have learned one feeling and how to deal with it, i cant just expect that to work with them all... i beat myself up about this loads... i also have to remember that i have repressed my feeling for so long (i am now 40) and that i have a LOT of learned behaviour patterns to unlearn and replce with better ones... but slowly, slowly i am coping better with the feelings stuff... i am starting to "not fly off the handle" so much and also am learning better coping mechanisms... i am also doing a load of work on the "now" stuff - Eckhart Tolle if you are interested... this focusses on how you are now - without worring about what happened before or what may happen in future... it is about focussing your energy on you NOW... bit spiritual and not everyone's cuppa tea, but i find the concept comforting and it feels good to me at this time to think on that... sorry if this is disjointed and not making sense... i am better at being asked specific questions rather than general ones at the moment... From my Therapists Website... if this helps owt... My philosophy and practice is grounded in the Person-Centred approach. That means that I value each persons individuality and unique circumstance and help you to identify changes you would like to make through exploring your world. It is based on the theory that the self-directed process of change would follow from a person’s experience of a particular kind of relationship, which is characterised by genuineness, non-judgemental caring and empathy. This approach is non-directive and is based on the concept that Counsellors cannot decide the direction that people can change and develop. well there you go... feel free to ask more - always willing to share stuff - if i have had a good t session i usually post my findings - maybe i will start blogging them rather than posting them, so you and others can read easier if u wanna - dunno - may be being egotistical!!! Kath xx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Thanks Ross for the really thoughtful response. I really do appreciate you taking the time to write a response. A LOT. I didn't actually realise that i was being dismissive, although it isn't a surprise it is second nature to me now. I have a 'rule' of dismissing my feelings before anyone else does. I have thought about invalidation and i do think that underneath my very caring and supportive family there was an undercurrent of invalidation. I do not feel this was done maliciously but i do recognise a lot of the expressions of invalidation that was given in the link attached to your post (especially those related to reasoning which is a big issue of mine - if i can't quantify something, which you can't with an emotion then i don't understand it and therefore don't like or want it in my life). So yes it brought back some memories. Do you think that feeling ignored is another way of being invalidated? I felt a lot of the time in my family because everyone was so busy i wasn't really thought about. My family are very much ones for sweeping things under the carpet and it has been imprinted in my mind that i am part of a family unit and that comes before me as an individual. I often felt that if my feelings weren't similar to that of the family then they were mocked or simply ignored. I think my parents felt that if they didn't question things then they'd just blow over and be forgotten. I had 2 conflicting parental personalities, my dad was very introverted and i never felt i knew him growing up. I remember times when i tried to provoke a reaction from my dad just to see if he cared and got none (i know now that he did care alot, but it wasn't till i was 14yrs and he went on a personal development course that he started to talk and become more involved with everything).Then there was my mum who was generally so busy with everything that she didn't have time to breathe herself. Until it got to the evening and as it went on there would be a point at which my mum would start crying and begging for me to talk to her, and that was hard to cope with because i didn't want to make her cry but i just hated that inconsistancy, the tears that i should be more emotionally open at night and then the busy, busy days that didn't give me a space to be open. I often felt very trapped. I have very big issues about talking time slots now, which is why i have a very hard time with therapy. It is a constant reenactment of my family situation. I feel in life that people tell me it is okay to be upset, angry, depressed but only if i do it within the alloted time offered, after that i must shut up. So now i tell myself to shut up, before they do. It is easier that way. The bullying was a major issue for most of my life aged 11 - 18yrs. It influenced a large majority of my behaviour, friends, the way i looked, well everything about me. It was made worse that i did not have supportive friends. The one key concept i was taught in regards to bullies is that it is important not to let them know that what they said/did hurt you because that way they'd see they were having an effect and keep going. This felt like another reinforcer that expressing emotions did little good, in fact they had a negative impact. I was so humiliated by bullies that i didn't talk to anyone about it, at the time i actually believed their lies and was so scared everyone would find out about me and turn against me. So i do feel the bullying was a big part of my life but i have dealt with a lot of it, mainly because i got an apology from one of the bullies just before i left school saying that i was a strong person and sorry for being mean. That kinda caused an explosion of emotions for me, but in the end gave me the validation to say 'yes that did happen, it wasn't just me being overly sensitive'. Gosh sorry this has become so long!! I very much have that feeling in therapy sometimes of just wanting my feelings to just be what they are instead of some convoluted reasoning. E.g the other day she said i want to move quicker because i think that is what she wants from me (we were talking previously about me being a people pleaser) but honestly i just want to move quicker so i can move quicker! I do understand therapy takes time and i'm in for the long haul if that is what it takes (not got anything better to do in my depressing life afterall!) but i'm not sure i want to think about the past. I feel really selfish and disrespectful just for writing this post. And guilty. And i know i'm only thinking and writing this anonomously but i feel as though i'm being judged for reading so much into so little. I appreciate you telling me your difficulties, sometimes, as you said, i don't feel i have the right to have emotional difficulties because there is nothing obvious in my past. I think the biggest difficulty that stops me being able to express emotions is that trigger every therapy sessions of a time frame. I don't believe that she cares about me, because if she really cared she'd not only listen to me, but try and alleviate some of the problems i have instead of making me go through that trigger session after session. Again i apologise this is so long and if you have read this far i really appreciate your kind and thoughtful responses. They have really helped me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted November 3, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 3, 2009 Gosh the same topic of invalidation. How do you feel you were invalidated as a child? Invalidation seems such a subtle cue and in my case it was done without bad intentions so i'm not overly sure what is and isn't an invalidation. I have thought about taking in my journal into therapy sessions and do sometimes take in scraps of paper but i am completely unable to even let her know i have brought these bits let alone read them to her and discuss it. I'm not sure why i can't but the minute i think about doing so a part inside me freezes up and won't let me. Did you ever have this difficulty? If so how did you get past it? How are you dealing with the feelings of frustration? I can't handle that feeling so i either SH or dissociate from it which just seems to make sessions even harder. Do you have any idea of how long you'll be in therapy? The psychiatrist i say said medication won't help me so he was going to discharge me but that i should continue in therapy and it might take several years. To be honest i've never heard anything more demoralising. I don't want to have to be better in x amount of sessions but i don't want to have these same problems in several years time either. My life is so limited now it doesn't seem worth living half the time, the only reason i carry on is that i'm assuming if others can feel nice things then they do exist. How did you learn to be able to sit with your anger? I don't really have any emotions other than sadness, frustration, irritation, anger and depression - so at least that means i don't have too many to work through! That is really sad to hear you beat yourself up about not being able to deal with all your emotions yet, i don't want you to do that...but i'm a hypocrite as i do the same myself. A few years ago i used to hate it when people would suggest that i had not learned the same emotional tools growing up as other people. It made me feel stupid as though it was my fault i didn't learn these as a kid. It has taken me a long time to get the point that noone was blaming me, and having to learn how to cope with emotions doesn't mean that i'm stupid or ignorant. So i think your understanding of having had repressed feelings for so long and the difficulties that causes is good. At least you don't beat yourself up over that too! I know quite a bit about Eckhart Tolle as my mum is very into his philosophy so talks about it quite a bit. I think focusing on the 'now' makes a lot of sense and probably allows for a lot more positive thinking as you don't have to worry over the past or future. But my difficulty is that i hate my now so i don't want to stay in it. To be honest i think that is just me putting up barriers and making excuses for something that is too hard for me to do right now but i don't really want to truly admit could be helpful. Thanks for sharing with me, where abouts do you usually post about your therapy sessions? I'm not overtly familiar with this forum yet! If you do start blogging can you pm me the link? I don't think it is egotistical at all, i'm learning an awful lot from this thread and would really appreciate having further conversations with others in therapy so i can discuss different difficulties and successes. Sometimes i feel like the only person in the world having therapy, it is nice to know that my frustrations are not uncommon and that there is a way through....with patience of course! ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 How do you feel you were invalidated as a child? Invalidation seems such a subtle cue and in my case it was done without bad intentions so i'm not overly sure what is and isn't an invalidation. my childhood memories are sketchy... but we came to the conclusion bout invalidation kinda from the following that i do remember: my extreme reactions to not being listened to being left out of major family secrets and decisions having my brother tell me things my parents didnt like me doing cos they dint wanna tell me themselves I have thought about taking in my journal into therapy sessions and do sometimes take in scraps of paper but i am completely unable to even let her know i have brought these bits let alone read them to her and discuss it. I'm not sure why i can't but the minute i think about doing so a part inside me freezes up and won't let me. Did you ever have this difficulty? If so how did you get past it? first thing i took to her was a poem, i posted it here first and was discussing it in chat with a couple friends who's opinions i trust and when i mentioned taking it to t, they said was a great idea, that gave me the confidence. plus, i am paying for t, so if i am not honest, then it is a waste of my money, the decision to "bear all" was made when i decided to go to t, anything less that the whole disclosure would make the exercise pointless... How are you dealing with the feelings of frustration? Badly, last night i had overwhelming feelings and couldnt handle them, so i just suppressed them and went bed. not very proactive, but they settled a bit when i told myself that they were too much for now but that i would give them the attention on thursday at t Do you have any idea of how long you'll be in therapy? The psychiatrist i say said medication won't help me so he was going to discharge me but that i should continue in therapy and it might take several years. To be honest i've never heard anything more demoralising. I don't want to have to be better in x amount of sessions but i don't want to have these same problems in several years time either. My life is so limited now it doesn't seem worth living half the time, the only reason i carry on is that i'm assuming if others can feel nice things then they do exist. not a clue - i am 40 and have been like this for years and years so i have a lot to get through and re-learn... but then i have been like this so long and so what's a few years, at the very least i got HOPE and that is important. things may still be shit but there is light at the end of the (probably v long) tunnel How did you learn to be able to sit with your anger? was the first emotion we did in t and she told me that it was OK to feel angry and i couldnt argue against that, as long as i dissipate the associated aggression safely, there is nothing wrong with feeling angry about someone or something. in my experience, people are only scared of anger cos of the associated violence and aggression, separate the two, deal with the aggression and the angry feeling is easier to sit with... I don't really have any emotions other than sadness, frustration, irritation, anger and depression - so at least that means i don't have too many to work through! hmmm what about all the "good" ones... seems u are repressing these ones more than the "bad" ones, does that indicate low self worth - u feel u dont deserve to feel good...? maybe summat to think on... is one of the things i am working on too... That is really sad to hear you beat yourself up about not being able to deal with all your emotions yet, i don't want you to do that...but i'm a hypocrite as i do the same myself. i am v competitive, control freak and i hate failing... workin on that too!!! A few years ago i used to hate it when people would suggest that i had not learned the same emotional tools growing up as other people. It made me feel stupid as though it was my fault i didn't learn these as a kid. It has taken me a long time to get the point that noone was blaming me, and having to learn how to cope with emotions doesn't mean that i'm stupid or ignorant. So i think your understanding of having had repressed feelings for so long and the difficulties that causes is good. At least you don't beat yourself up over that too! i grew up thinking i was v v emotional person, it took my t to illustrate to me that i repressed feelings... i never even considered it as the problem. once i accepted that, which was easy cos was presented to me with all the head-stuff evidence that i needed, the rest was easier o and you cant learn summat if u are taught about it wrong, teacher NOT the pupil... especially if "do as i say" does not match "do as i do" cos then it is even more confusing... I know quite a bit about Eckhart Tolle as my mum is very into his philosophy so talks about it quite a bit. I think focusing on the 'now' makes a lot of sense and probably allows for a lot more positive thinking as you don't have to worry over the past or future. But my difficulty is that i hate my now so i don't want to stay in it. To be honest i think that is just me putting up barriers and making excuses for something that is too hard for me to do right now but i don't really want to truly admit could be helpful. when yuo are ready it will make sense and be easier... dont force it - it has its natural time... Thanks for sharing with me, where abouts do you usually post about your therapy sessions? I'm not overtly familiar with this forum yet! If you do start blogging can you pm me the link? all over the place - sometimes i will feed back into a topic i started on what i was going through, sometimes i will post in topics i have been discussing with other people... if u wanna have a look through my posts - i have t on a thursday night so usually post thurs after 8 ish or the next day... if i start to blog i will send u link if u wanna... Sometimes i feel like the only person in the world having therapy, it is nice to know that my frustrations are not uncommon and that there is a way through....with patience of course! glad u feel less alone - tis from coming here that i got the strength to actually sort out the underlying issues rather than jus take the drugs for a while until the dep lifted and then sit back, stable, until the next one... this time i am determined to get to the crux of the problem rather than jus alleviate the symptoms... quite simply here is my safety net... well... there u have it... hope that helped... sorry if i waffled a bit :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Hi Moonshine In your replies I feel like I can sense an awful lot of guilt and of owing your parents something, and that it perhaps feels that putting the past in perspective is the same thing as abandoning them or letting them down. This issue is one that a lot of people face when they go into the 'deeper' therapies. You have grown up in that environment you describe - where if your emotions are different to the family's, if they go on for too long past their time slot, you feel guilty or afraid. It is like the wallpaper in your house - after a while you just take it for granted, its just 'what is'. When someone points out "there was another way", this can sound utterly bizarre - you have grown so used to doubting your emotions due to invalidation, that you also doubt whether you were invalidated. The difficulty for someone with a lot of guilt to get past is that, whether it was intentional or not, invalidation will still cause the same struggles. Whether done consciously, unconsciously, meant with love or with some ill will, invalidation is invalidation is invalidation. The question you seem to be asking yourself is "do I have any right to feel this way" - which in itself IS invalidation. That is maybe why you seem to be stuck on the issue of 'was I abused' - because if you could recall being hurt, sexually assaulted or something 'severe', then you would have a 'right' to feel bad. But with nothing to actively suggest you were, your natural tendency to self-invalidate comes to the fore. I have the same struggle. I remember my mum as weak, as suffering. She would 'need' me but could not handle my emotions, and so I tried very hard to not have feelings and to try to be there for her. When I got angry, or displayed strong emotions, I was made to feel guilty and ashamed, even frightened. I could not express feelings. But feelings ARE WHO WE ARE. Human beings do not exist independent of feelings, they are not pure intellect or only happy, bouncy feelings. But invlidation demands that we are, and we spend our lives trying to get to the point where we can get rid of them for good, become perfect people, get rid of the depression, and highly reactive anger, and just be cool calm and collcted always. Not need anyone. Do it all alone. I too cannot get to the place of seeing my mum as like a movie-grade abuser. But yet there is so much anger inside me - anger that I have always tried to push down, get rid of, and which from time to time engulfs me, then frightens me back into demanding I never feel again. There is a part of me that feels sorry for mum and blames myself - if only I wasnt such an over-sensitive child, if only I could have controlled my feelings. But then I found out that its through validation and acceptance of a childs feelings, that they come to learn to control them and soothe them. Without validation, this process cannot happen. By invalidating, the parent actually dooms the child to become more and more emotionally reactive, as those feelings inside scream for expression. Its a vicious circle. Then the smallest thing comes along and BANG. My mum didnt MEAN to do this. She could not cope with emotion, and my anger made her feel criticised and attacked. If I was feeling angry, even at another person, she took that personally and would shame and guilt me. I learned to rationalise my problems and present them to her unemotionally, and then later t not bother at all. She couldnt help that she couldnt handle emotions - but the effect on me is the same as if she had planned it all along. Could she have changed her behaviour? Perhaps, though its unlikely. She had years of life behind her driving that reaction. But that does not change the fact that the damage was done, and it doesnt change the fact that I feel so much anger towards her. What you are describing is a very invalidating home environment. It may be true that it was done with the best of intentions. When you ask yourself the question "was I invalidated" you may hear a little internal voice somewhere saying "dont be so ridiculous / melodramatic! Of course you werent invalidated. Who do you think you are? How could you say such a thing? You HORRIBLE little person". If you do hear, or feel the presence of this voice or a similar one, I hope you can also see the irony of it - the irony that the words its speaking are invalidation actually embodied within you. Its actually set up a little camp inside your brain and is running the operation .... Is this easy to get over? No - not at all. I have known I was invalidated pretty much since I have started therapy, but it has taken that year and a half to come to actually FEEL the reality of that, rather than know it in my head. I have a huge fight going on inside me between the guilt and self blame, and the anger and part of me that needs its feelings and whose emotional needs are not being met. If you are focusing on trying to interpret and explain your problems and feelings, without actually feeling them in the session, then this will explain why you feel so distant from your T. It may also explain why you feel so stuck. Psychoanalysis can go down this path - only sticking to insight and interpretation. If you do, you will only know things in your head - you will not feel them in your heart. What I am trying to say is - stop looking for a reason why you are "allowed" to hurt. Stop looking for a sign of obvious abuse, or a single event to hang this all on. Hurt is hurt is hurt - if you are in pain, then that is reason enough to be in therapy. If you were invalidated, then that is 'what was', and probably still is as you keep it going by invalidating yourself. You will probably have to face the guilt, the anger and the hurt inside in order to let yourself see that invalidation has hurt you, whether it was subtle or not (in fact, subtelty is a hallmark of invalidation which is what makes it so hard to spot and accept). You dont have to 'blame' your parents. If you like, keep this therapy classic in mind - "They are responsible, but not to blame". You dont have to confront them, send them shitty letters, or any of those things. But in the therapy room, and perhaps inside some corner of your mind, you can start to say "my feelings ARE important. My feelings are real. My feelings ARE NOT these sick, extreme aberrations that must be vanished away. I dont have to be perfect. Somewhwre out there is a person who WILL accept and value my needs and feelings, want to be with them and accept them, at least most of the time, and who wont close me down or guilt me or walk away or instantly overwhelm me with THEIR needs at the moment I need THEM. I want to know my feelings again, perhaps for the first time in my life. I want to feel EVERYTHING again." I read an interesting definition of mental health. It said "The opposite of depression is not happiness. It is VITALITY. Vitality means to be able to feel the full range of human emotion". 'Healthy' people do not never feel sad, or angry. They experience overwhelming feelings. But because they are open to them, because they have learned that feelings are acceptable and people will still be there for them despite their strong feelings, those feelings do not engulf them in quite the way they do you and I. They have more energy because they are not constantly battling to suppress feeling, or watching like a hawk the potential reactions of anger of others. Yes they will still feel some shame, sometimes guilt. But they will not be the central issues that they are with us. Emotions are transient things, and to be healthy is to be open to their experience as they arise. When we close off entire parts of ourself, that is when we suffer. The drive to perfection, the drive to 'overcome' our troublesome feelings, just reinforces the same cycle. But to start with it means giving ourself permission, and then facing the fear and shame, of actually feeling and expressing emotion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Thought I would also add Something that has helped me become open to feeling, and also hugely helped in the process of intellectual AND emotional insight, is using mindfulness skills. I wont write a load about it, but it is an excellent way of getting back in touch with cut off feelings and learning to accept and be with them. There are many good books on it, one I like is "the mindful way through depression". Whether you feel depressed or not, the skills in it are useful for all emotions. There are hundreds of titles out there on mindfulness though, and many people on this site that use it and find it helpful. Even a google search will probably throw up some useful things. It takes a while to learn, and its one of those things that just keeps becoming stronger as you use it, but I dont want to say too much and deprive you of the pleasure of finding out! Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Thought I would also add Something that has helped me become open to feeling, and also hugely helped in the process of intellectual AND emotional insight, is using mindfulness skills. I wont write a load about it, but it is an excellent way of getting back in touch with cut off feelings and learning to accept and be with them. There are many good books on it, one I like is "the mindful way through depression". Whether you feel depressed or not, the skills in it are useful for all emotions. There are hundreds of titles out there on mindfulness though, and many people on this site that use it and find it helpful. Even a google search will probably throw up some useful things. It takes a while to learn, and its one of those things that just keeps becoming stronger as you use it, but I dont want to say too much and deprive you of the pleasure of finding out! Ross to add to Ross's post... mindfullness and the tolle "now" stuff are kinda the same they both deal with living in the moment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Ive not read any Tolle Hmmmm Im gonna go to library and have a readie Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Eckhart Tolle The Power of Now wiki does a good write up! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Power_of_Now happy reading :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 4, 2009 Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Ta chit Hm he also wrote "A New Earth" didnt he? Ive heard folks speak highly of that too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted November 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Thanks for answering my questions. I know you find it easier to have direct questions and looking back at my post i hope that is what i did although they were mixed in with a load of other rubbish! It is really interesting how you realised you had an invalidating childhood experience as I have extreme reactions to not being listened to also. I have blamed so many drs and counsellors for not listening properly....it was only recently that i started to think maybe it is less about them not listening and more about me not feeling listened too (if that makes sense!). After awhile it got to the point where i started to wonder if what i was saying was coming out right, it went so far as to wondering if maybe everything was a figment of my imagination and i wasn't actually talking at all! What you said about feeling left out of major family secrets and decisions brought up another memory for me, it is a long-standing family joke that i have to be told information first because i used to get so upset when i was the last to know everything. If my dad now tells me something importantly he always starts 'you are the very first person to be told this okay so you can't get upset by thinking that you are always the last to know hahaha.....but....'. I hate that running joke! I totally understand that if you are spending the money you might as well be getting your money's worth. I'm paying privately also so i definately get that aspect of it. I understand the logic of 'bearing all', and it is something i strive to do, but it is almost an innate behaviour in me to not be able to share things that could cause me shame or humiliation and/or show weakness. My mind literally freezes and i cannot get past it even with all the will power in the world. Does it not frustrate you further that you have to suppress and wait till thursday when you have the time to deal with them? It makes me so angry that i have to wait and disconnect for the benefit of other people. If you suppress your emotions then how do you remember them? My t will ask how my week has been and i know on some level it hasn't been great (if only by the cuts on my arm) but i can't remember anything much about it so i just say 'fine'. Because at that point it has been fine, it isn't that i'm lying...i simply don't remember. Absolutely hope is the key component in therapy. Without hope there would not be much point in doing anything at all. I do hope your tunnel is not too long though!! How can you feel angry but not feel aggressive? When i'm angry all i feel is hate. I'm not scared of my anger, it is actually a very powerful aspect of my personality and it makes me feel invincible which is very addictive! How long did it take to master the art of just having the anger without consequence? Did she literally just say it is okay to feel angry? I wonder why my therapist has never said that to me. She says it is a defense mechanism but she isn't very positive and reassuring. Well maybe she is, it is hard to remember. I don't have any good emotions. I repress the bad ones as much as possible. I used to be a full on zombie before the depression took over and caused havoc. I don't know why i don't have good emotions, i generally feel i have high self esteem, the outside bit of my personality is pretty okay, she gets through the day and doesn't bring me too much shame. But i hate me inside. I want to stamp on that bit. Being competitive, a control freak and hating failing must give you a massive amount of personal drive and determination!So i think there can be positive elements to those characteristics. I know that the fear of shame has driven me to be able to complete many things in my life. That isn't a bad thing exactly. I want to be able to do mindfulness, i feel as if there is an avenue of help there at my fingertips but i'm just not ready yet. Maybe it is the thought of sitting with my feelings, as much as i want to do this, the very idea of having to be mindful and focus fills me with dread. But i will get the Eckhard Tolle books down from the shelf and try and read them this weekend, maybe i'm admitting defeat before i even start! Yes i understand the rollercoaster. I will look out for your posts! thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions, it was very helpful! And no you didn't waffle one bit...but i am renouned for it Oh another memory brought up, my friend pretending to slump to the floor dead during one of my long rambling stories...she said she died of boredom. Yep nice friend!.....see that was waffle for you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted November 4, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 4, 2009 Thanks again for replying Ross, i'm worried that i'm getting irritating and boring for you (which basically means that my scared my 'time slot' is nearly all used up!) but i do really appreciate your responses as they are offering a lot of realisations! I fear talking about my parents badly because i worry about the power of thoughts. Please don't think i'm totally crazy, but i worry that just by having bad thoughts bad things will happen to my parents. I'm not sure if this relates back to a time when i was scared of speaking because everytime i did i managed to hurt someone, i learnt it was best not to speak in the end I feel by admitting that there were times in my childhood when i didn't feel included and understood i am slurring my family. But I hear what you say about invalidation being invalidation regardless of whether it was intentional or not, i just find this so hard to accept emotionally because i've always been taught that i should try and understand the reasons behind a persons actions and this should guide my emotional response. For me it is not okay to be upset or angry with someone who acts badly simply out of ignorance or their own bad feelings because then it isn't justified to have bad feelings. So for me this equates to - even if i was invalidated it shouldn't bother me because i should have understanding now and this should counter-act any earlier feelings of invalidation. Does that make any sense or am i rambling nonsense?! I think secretly i do desperately want to seek out someone who can tell me that some of the things i felt growing up was hard. Until i get that validation i don't think i will be able to move forward. And i also think perhaps i need to hear that validation over and over again before it is truly heard over that little internal voice in my head oh yep that little voice is always chirping away! That little voice means that I don't really trust my perception of reality so i know i'm not going to allow acceptance any time soon unless i know for certain what i feel is right/okay. Just like with the bullying situation, for years i felt that it was my fault, that i was just overly sensitive to normal childish stupidity, until that bully said she'd been mean. Ironically then i felt i had the right to admit openly i had been bullied, up to that point how could i be sure i wasn't just making a mountain out of a molehill?! And yes i know you have explained this, but my internal critic just can't let go! I totally relate to wanting to be perfect. I get a soaring feeling in my chest when i am the cool, calm and collected one. I convey this image a lot and it has gotten to the point now where people feel my biggest strength is my ability to be totally logical...this is totally demoralising because it makes me realise that noone actually knows me at all because it couldn't be further from the truth, internally i act on whim and logic goes out of the window entirely. I desperately want to be able to not need anyone and do it alone, so i try and make that reality by pushing people away from me so they can see how 'strong' and independent i am. Not needing anyone for me that would be a perfect life and perfect world because everything would be controlled. What you said about a child learning how to control and soothe their emotions hits on something my therapist once said about not having a model for pain. I didn't really get this at the time although it rang true somewhere deep inside me, but i think putting what you said together with it what she meant is that i didn't have a model through which i could learn how to deal with bad feelings. It's true i don't even intellectually understand the concept of self-soothing, for me you either have the emotion or you don't, i don't feel i can change or reduce it in anyway otherwise do you really have the emotions?...maybe it was a fake emotion? and why should i do it myself, can't other people?! Yes again, a total contridiction to my last paragraph when i said i want to not need anyone....welcome to my head, i don't know what i want or need!!! It sounds like you are in a very similar situation to me trying to balance the guilt, anger and vulnerable part. I know that i need to feel rather than understand intellectually because that is one of the defense mechanisms i currently use to stop me feeling. So okay i hear you. I need to accept what you are saying and that may take some time but i am hearing you. Do you think it is important for me to talk about the times when i felt invalidated with my therapist (e.g. the few situations i have explained to you in this thread) or do you think it is more an internal thing? Obviously it is clear that my first step is to gain acceptance of my feelings, and this means a lot more to me now than it did a few days ago. Before acceptance just meant recognition of an emotion (which can be hard enough in itself to be truthful), but now it means allowing my feelings to be. If that makes any sense, hopefully i've understood it right! "my feelings ARE important. My feelings are real. My feelings ARE NOT these sick, extreme aberrations that must be vanished away. I dont have to be perfect. Somewhwre out there is a person who WILL accept and value my needs and feelings, want to be with them and accept them, at least most of the time, and who wont close me down or guilt me or walk away or instantly overwhelm me with THEIR needs at the moment I need THEM. I want to know my feelings again, perhaps for the first time in my life. I want to feel EVERYTHING again." This was upsetting to read because it is exactly what i want to feel but i can't believe will ever happen. For someone to accept me for me is completely incomprehensible to me right now. Thankyou for putting this into words for me. Like Kath and you have suggested I will try and read some mindfulness books to see if they help. I am open to this but I'm also still very fearful of practicing mindfulness because i think it will take some time before i'm able to accept my emotions let alone be mindful of them. However it may provide some access to emotions that i'm deeply dissociated from which may be useful. Btw yes he wrote both those books, and i actually have them both so no excuses for me! Thankyou. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Hi moonshine Thank you for your detailed reply, it actually makes me feel better because at least I know my waffle is being read You arent annoying me at all, what you are going through is very similar to my own experience, and so we are both learning from this really. What you said about being able to rationalise emotions and so their not being real, that again is a message of invalidation. It is true that you can get angry at something, and then later see that it wasnt so big. The thing is, 'healthy' people do not try to bury the emotion in the first place. They let it be inside them, or act on it. Anger is the feeling that helps us protect ourselves - without it we cannot do that. When it comes to childhood invalidation, you have to think about childhood NEEDS. Needs are the things that need to be met for normal emotional development. Even if you can, 20 years laters, intellectually figure out that they didnt mean to, or there was some good reason for it, you still will not have had your needs met at the key time. It is like whether you water a plant - yes you may have needed the water to clean the table top, or there may have been a drought. Theres a great reason why that plant didnt get watered - but it doesnt change the fact that the plant has grown withered or even died. To the plant, all that mattered to its growth was that it got the water when it needed it - not an explanation later. I think it would be good to tell your T about your feelings, and the times you have felt invalidated. You might even want to say out loud "please dont interpret this or intellectualise it for me, I want to feel it" or something similar. Feelings have both an internal and an external part - the feeling, and the expression. Its true that we can choose to blunt our external expression, if the situation calls for it. But in children who are afraid of their feelings because their expression causes trouble, they can learn to blunt the feeling off INSIDE. They are no longer in touch with the core of who they are - they dont know who they are, ohters dont know who they are. When you ask if its an internal thing, thats perhaps not the question to be asked. Perhaps more "what am I actually feeling?" alongside actually experiencing the sensation in your body. This is what the mindfulness will help you do. It will be hard to know when you have a 'right' to express emotion, and this is something I am currently struggling with. In the outside world, its true that emotional expression can lead to problems, but also that NON expression can lead to problems, such as being taken advantage of, being bullied, used or of chronically not getting emotional needs met. This issue of balance is very hard to answer when you are stuck in the invalidated state, and so you need a safe place to experiment with letting out feelings. It will be hard because it means trusting your T, but therapy is the safest place to do it. Its possible the emotions will come out very powerfully, perhaps even feel as though they will consume you. You also mentioned a feeling of 'vanishing' when you let others in. This can commonly happen when a child is very emotionally enmeshed with a parent (an experience of feeling suffocated or emotionally restricted / invaded by a parent is a clue to this). Again these are going to be barriers to gradually work through. I dont want to suggest that any of these things are easy, or that you should "just" do such and such and you will feel better. For me all this stuff has started as an idea, a direction, and I have gradually felt my way into it. Sort of like a sign post - the idea of acceptance of feeling DOES start with naming it, identifying it. But then you start to let the feeling trickle through, rather than putting the shutter down on it. The mindfulness can teach you to have a sense of compassion for your emotions, because at first you will feel a powerful urge to push the emotion away, or make it not be. This will leak up almost unconsciously, so that is why learning to be aware is important. It will take time too (but you know that already ). A word on the Power of Now book. I am sure that the rest of the book is extremely good. I have only read the first chapter, but there was something that bothered me slightly when it comes to teaching mindfulness. He starts the book by saying that his own breakthrough happened instantly, that he went from suicidal depression to perfect bliss in the space of a night, and that that has remained ever since. Whilst that may be true, this is not how the process happens for most mortals. The process of awareness and becoming opne to emotion takes a long time, not a night time. When I read it, I felt very uneasy for quite a while, and then I figured out why. My own invalidating voice inside had latched onto that message and was saying "see? if you just did that one simple thing and stopped being so x, y and z then you could be in a state of bliss in a matter of minutes! All those years in therapy, how silly". Maybe Tolle wasnt saying that, but the fact he put this message up front bothered me a little - as if it was a selling point of the book. Sudden and radical change of this type is extremely uncommon, so if you do read that book, be aware of this when you get to that part. I havent read the rest of the book as yet, but from dipping into it it does seem that he is presenting a lot of buddhist ideas, from which mindfulness came some 1000 years ago - so its had a good trial run to prove its worth! Even then, buddhist monks usually take a lifetime to achieve enlightenment, as opposed to Tolle's bad night in bed .... just a word of warning is all. Maybe read from a few sources on mindfulness, and then you can choose the ones that feel right to you. There is a lot online, so maybe start there. Jon Kabat Zinn is a very good teacher. Thich Nhat Hanh as well. Also you might go HERE and listen to some of the talks or guided meditations. All good free stuff Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Oo sorry I missed a bit You asked about proof of invalidation. There are a couple of ways this might come. When you hear that invalidating voice, stop and listen to it. Maybe even close your eyes or lay down, something you might do with your mindfulness practice. When you think back, whose words are these? Can you imagin anyone from childhood saying those words to you? What facial expression did they have at the time? How did they seem to be feeling when they said it? If you can link the inner invalidator to the past, you may come to see a little how that voice came to be there. Secondly, as you start to open up and feel with your T, you may come to think "why have I not done this before? Why is it ok to feel with her but it has never been ok with anyone else? Why couldnt I do this at home?". This type of insight is more powerful because its emotional. The freedom of expression afforded you in therapy will start to become very attractive, and part of you will think "I like this". The idea of going back to not feeling, not expressing, will become a difficult one to tolerate. Remember though that contact with the family can unfortunately re-inforce old patterns, so if you are in touch with your parents be aware that this may act against what you are doing. This is another struggle you may have to face as your guilt and shame will be at its strongest, especially that feeling that thoughts can cause damage to them. have you explored that with your T? I think it might be a good place to start :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I totally understand that if you are spending the money you might as well be getting your money's worth. I'm paying privately also so i definately get that aspect of it. I understand the logic of 'bearing all', and it is something i strive to do, but it is almost an innate behaviour in me to not be able to share things that could cause me shame or humiliation and/or show weakness. My mind literally freezes and i cannot get past it even with all the will power in the world. t is a long process *sigh* somethings you may not be ready to deal with... i wouldn't try and force it, it will come together in its own time, maybe there is summat you have to tackle first before u will be able to go down that particular road in a more safer way... dunno... jus thinking aloud, like i havent even touched on sex and relationships yet - i am well not ready for that - we are merely tackling self esteem and feelings atm, the rest should be easier after we crack these (fingers crossed) Does it not frustrate you further that you have to suppress and wait till thursday when you have the time to deal with them? It makes me so angry that i have to wait and disconnect for the benefit of other people. If you suppress your emotions then how do you remember them? My t will ask how my week has been and i know on some level it hasn't been great (if only by the cuts on my arm) but i can't remember anything much about it so i just say 'fine'. Because at that point it has been fine, it isn't that i'm lying...i simply don't remember. It frustrates me more sitting with them and trying to work them out and not getting it! And i was suppressing them for my own self preservation and not for other people... subtle but important difference... as it turned out my shitty mood was actually PMT (see told you was thick, but i guess i didnt realise cos i have been on ad's and of course i didint get that so much when i was on them that i forgot how bad it can be!) Remembering how i felt about something a few days after is actually a good way for me to work through t - she asks me how i felt at the time compared to how i am feeling telling her about them... if i am in a shitty mood i usually vent here, and if i do that, then i usually print it off and give it to her to read through... she can gain alot from the words i use... whether they be feeling words or head words... Absolutely hope is the key component in therapy. Without hope there would not be much point in doing anything at all. I do hope your tunnel is not too long though!! Thanks - me too! How can you feel angry but not feel aggressive? When i'm angry all i feel is hate. I'm not scared of my anger, it is actually a very powerful aspect of my personality and it makes me feel invincible which is very addictive! How long did it take to master the art of just having the anger without consequence? Did she literally just say it is okay to feel angry? I wonder why my therapist has never said that to me. She says it is a defense mechanism but she isn't very positive and reassuring. Well maybe she is, it is hard to remember. dunno... i just seem to be able to split the emotion and the physical out from eachother... dont really wanna analyse why tbh as i am afraid if i start examining it i will lose the ability. i am a lucky to be able to just accept summat and not necessarily have to nit pick the whys and hows... o and yes, my t is VERY VERY VALIDATING - she did just literally say that it is OK to feel anything... ALL feelings are valid... but it is how we deal with our reactions to those feelings that we need to work on - ie developing SAFE coping mechanisms if the feelings are extreme.... kinda like, she said that and a lil lightbulb went on in my head and i was just able to accept it totally... I don't have any good emotions. I repress the bad ones as much as possible. I used to be a full on zombie before the depression took over and caused havoc. I don't know why i don't have good emotions, i generally feel i have high self esteem, the outside bit of my personality is pretty okay, she gets through the day and doesn't bring me too much shame. But i hate me inside. I want to stamp on that bit. you say you have high self esteem and then you say you hate yuo inside... not sure how that follows... i am working through self esteem, and i took one day the other month just to be with myself and try an like myself, i achieved this by having a lil shop and bought myself a few treats and then pampered myself a lil - nice bubble bath with candles and face pack and painted my toe nails... glass of wine at lunchtime, i actually enjoyed being with myself for that day... major breakthrough for me... Being competitive, a control freak and hating failing must give you a massive amount of personal drive and determination!So i think there can be positive elements to those characteristics. I know that the fear of shame has driven me to be able to complete many things in my life. That isn't a bad thing exactly. yeah, the only thing i hate about it is the beating myself up when the answer is obvious and i failed to get it! I want to be able to do mindfulness, i feel as if there is an avenue of help there at my fingertips but i'm just not ready yet. Maybe it is the thought of sitting with my feelings, as much as i want to do this, the very idea of having to be mindful and focus fills me with dread. But i will get the Eckhard Tolle books down from the shelf and try and read them this weekend, maybe i'm admitting defeat before i even start! i always maintain with self help books, if you try and read them and find they are hard work, or u dont think it is going in, then you are either not ready for them or they are not right for you... so if you do choose to have a delve and struggle, then i wouldn't force it... maybe try again in a while, but if it still doesnt feel right, then abandon that one and try something else... Yes i understand the rollercoaster. I will look out for your posts! thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions, it was very helpful! And no you didn't waffle one bit...but i am renouned for it Oh another memory brought up, my friend pretending to slump to the floor dead during one of my long rambling stories...she said she died of boredom. Yep nice friend!.....see that was waffle for you!! always happy to talk about my experiences and listening to other peoples - is the whole point of a peer to peer site... we all share and take ideas and concepts from eachother... i have learned alot from you and ross in this thread too... when i waffle at work, my colleague just points at the ceiling and says "oooo something shiny has caught my attention" and then i know to shut up!!!!! jus remember, that i write stuff according to ME and MY experiences... like for everything you read, jus take the stuff that sits well with you, ponder the stuff you are unsre about and discard the stuff that doesnt feel right... is what i do... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Hi moonshine If I may be a bit rude and pick up on something you said there to chit about not remembering your feelings? That very much sounds like an aspect of dissociation, but it can also happen when a person uses very well-formed 'masks' that they want to present to the world. Psychologists call it an overcompensation, which although it doesnt sound very flattering, is a good way to describe whats happening - I do it too. Its like "I will feel and behave in the exact opposite way that I really feel underneath". But it becomes so automatic, so rehearsed, that the feelings really do start to disappear. Its very common in people that have strong compensations that they dont remember the painful emotions later. If you are cutting, then that provides a mechanism for release. Does your T know that you cut? Self harm seems to have a different function for many people, but the main experience seems to be that it is soothing. I do not self harm, but I have discovered a hidden part of myself that feels soothed and calm when he lets in the punishing voices, when he is held in contempt. Its bizarre because I have successfully blotted out this part of me until now - but he has always been there, exerting a subconscious pull. Its why I always feel I deserve whatever punishment or hurt I have just experienced. Maybe as you begin the mindfulness, and so are making yourself pay more attention to the pain as it comes up, you will remember it more. For a lot of people, when they hurt they will try to put it out of mind, or reach for something like alcohol. This is another way of coping with pain, known as avoidance. It sounds to me very much that you want to get better, and I admire how much you are embracing new ideas. The one thing I would want to say though, it may not apply to you, but its the trap I have been in for a very long time. I think I have touched on it already - but ask yourself, what do you see as the goal of therapy for you? Do you want him / her to make you better, take away your feelings and help you to truly become your mask - become perfect, emotionally cool calm and collected, never a bother to anyone, perhaps looked up to, or do you want to be able to take back all your feelings and discover who you really are (no natter how difficult that may seem right now?). For me, I had been telling myself it was the latter, when in fact I was doing the former. There is a very powerful undercurrent for me of "I must be the best, I must be perfect, I must be charismatic, confident". I had been using therapy to try to get me to that point, effectively pulling in the opposite direction to what I was outwardly saying I was! That impulse is still there, and I must be aware of it. Its only recently that I have allowed myself to get close to the sense of worthlessness inside, the sense of shamefulness. Its horrible to face it, and I can see why my compensations have always been so powerful. It does sound like for you though that the dissociative part is very strong. Do you have 'alters' at all - that is, separate personalities that seem to come out and assert themselves, maybe ones that you have names for? Not saying that you do, its just that some people have a thing called Dissociative Identity Disorder where this can happen. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted November 5, 2009 Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 Sorry I am writing so much on this post, theres so much stuff here I relate to, and you are asking all the same questions that I am at the moment too ... How can you feel angry but not feel aggressive? When i'm angry all i feel is hate. I'm not scared of my anger, it is actually a very powerful aspect of my personality and it makes me feel invincible which is very addictive! How long did it take to master the art of just having the anger without consequence? Did she literally just say it is okay to feel angry? I wonder why my therapist has never said that to me. She says it is a defense mechanism but she isn't very positive and reassuring. Well maybe she is, it is hard to remember. I think that the idea is that we learn to USE our emotions, rather than control or suppress them. Anger can add urgency and power when you are feeling taken advantage of. But if you are afraid of your angry expressions, you will also be struck down by anxiety and the sense that your anger is wrong or out of control. I think kath made the point above already, but at first its about separating the outward expression from the feeling. I dont mean shut the feeling off, but just to start to recognise that you have anger, anger is a normal emotion and has an important function - to protect us. But as Kath said, others react to the external way it comes out. Some people are fine with others anger, some people want to shut you down, shame you or guilt you. But when all you know is the second one, you start to feel afraid of the feeling itself. Backing it all up in this way leads to pressure increasing inside, and so all that pressure gets released by seemingly small things. Then you bung yourself back up again Before you can learn to use anger effectively (and there is no simple, one size fits all answer because each situation is different) you need to be comfy with the idea of it 'out in the world'. Its true that many people will get angry back at you, and I know for me this alone is evidence that I screwed up. It makes me go back in my shell. The hard part for me is recognising that others may react this way, but that doesnt always mean Im wrong or shouldnt feel angry. I am being surprised lately that I can actually express anger and others DONT punish me, that has happened a couple of times so far as my feelings leak out more. Also I bolded out that last bit because you have invalidated yourself You clearly feel that your T has never said that to you, and that she calls it a defence mechanism. It doesnt matter what the actual truth of the matter is at this stage - just let that feeling be! If you dont feel heard or listened to, then that is what is. That is another mindfulness thing - always accept what is, even if its not what you are 'meant' to be feeling. If you dont feel heard, then that will have an emotional impact in your body. Let that be - perhaps its anger. What comes up after you feel angry? Guilt? The desire to repress it? The little invalidation voice? Just notice all of them as a start Then you can let that feeling in, and later maybe say to your T "maybe you dont see it this way, but I often feel like you havent really heard me or just let me feel my emotions. I dont like it when you dismiss my feelings as a defence menchanism - I dont want an explanation, I want my feelings to be heard" If it turns out that your T is herself not comfy with feelings, or insists only on intellectualising them, then maybe look for another therapist? If she is inadvertently reinforcing your tendency to intellectualise and repress, then dont feel guilty or focus on how much you have already put in. If you want to feel your emotions, you need someone who will let you do that, and be there to calmly accept them and be strong for you. Try telling her that you want this, and try letting out feelings as they come up for you and see what happens? Something I have tried recently is actually saying "hmm I am feeling angry now". My T will ask me why. Its very hard for me to say it, but gradually I am starting to actually say "I felt invalidated by that" or "I dont want you to do that". When I see that she accepts it, it seems to make me feel happier and closer to her, which is counter to what you would think if you are expressing negative feelings. But if she explains my feelings away, or makes me feel I shouldnt express them, then I feel 100 times angrier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonshine Posted November 5, 2009 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2009 I don't consider what you reply to be waffle at all! I am learning a great deal from this thread, it is really good to talk through ideas and experiences with someone who understands - it doesn't happen that often so i'm very grateful for this opportunity!! Invalidation through rationalisation of emotions was one of the main issues i mentioned in a pervious post but i didn't see the connection until you pointed it out! I didn't see it as invalidation but simply evidence that i was incompetent at doing 'what should be done'. I find that 'healthy' people don't have such a hard time with their emotions because they aren't as big as ours. If i have an emotion then i am that emotion, it literally consumes me. E.g. if i'm angry then i'm anger personafied, well, unless i'm able to cut off from it! I liked your analogy of a plant without water, that makes complete sense to me. I'm unsure what a child needs to develop healthy emotions, but the only need i think wasn't fulfilled very well for me was the need to be heard. I think 'what am i actually feeling?' is a really big question for me at the moment. I feel a lot of emotions physically but i have a hard time pinpointing what they actually are. I know the big ones, the pain is in my chest, the anger in my arms and sadness in my head...but beyond that i haven't a clue. I was explaining to my t one time about a situation where i felt out of control and had a tightening sensation in my chest which she suggested was terror. That sounded right but later in the session when i used it i got the feeling that she was worried she had put words in my mouth...so i didn't want to use it again. It may have been me being hypersensitive but it felt like she thought she'd overstepped a boundry just by helping me to try and explain something i couldn't. That was hard because it felt like she was offering understanding and then pulling it away from me. I think it is hard to feel emotions without expressing them. A lot of the time i don't like to feel any emotions because i have a job to do, people to interact with etc and if i have them i can't do all these things. I don't think i quite understand (the part of me that does the emotions bit) that my emotions and someone else emotions can be seperate. If i have an emotions i do expect people to feel it to the same degree i do and get frustrated when they don't, and vice versa, if i let people in i'm scared all their emotions will come bombarding in and suffocate me. Jeez that is even scary to write about - i don't do emotional connection! It is interesting what you wrote about being emotionally ehmeshed with a parent, i have a very close bond with my mum and she has said that i was the one with which she connected with the fastest as a baby but i never felt emotional restricted/invaded by my parents. I have to admit i'm still fearful of uncovering the feelings of invalidation. When writing these posts i have been very aware that i'm not felt anything but have been listing the event as though it did not happen to me. Perhaps if i take the time to journal them in more detail it will be useful. I will try and see that little voice in my head as that of invalidation rather than the gospel truth. A part of me already is grateful for the time and space i have with my therapist. How did you feel when you questioned "Why is it ok to feel with her but it has never been ok with anyone else? Why couldnt I do this at home?"? I do have contact with my parents. It is hard posting on here and then seeing them. I feel as though i've committed a sin. I've not discussed the feelings that my thoughts can cause damage with my therapist because i think it will make me sound totally bizarre. Beside because i fear thoughts and their power, i don't want to 'spread' it to my therapist, it is all about damage control! If i tell my therapist about the thoughts then her brain will have to process it which will mean she will be thinking it and it will be stronger. I don't know what 'it' is but it is bad. I'm glad you mentioned the not remembering aspect because it is something that is really frustrating me at the moment when i'm trying to be good and move forward. I've never heard of overcompensation, what is the difference between that and disscoiation - that a person makes a conscious choice to act the exact opposite to how they feel? My therapist does know that i cut, it was an issue at first but i think she realises now that it is simply a coping mechanism and that i need it. I know what you mean about having a part that feels better when there is destruction. I frequently feel the need to self-destruct in order to keep me on an even keel. My life is one big balancing act! I understand what it feels like to have parts of you to pop out from nowhere, it is very disconcerting! I flick between feeling desperately guilty about everything and feeling as though everyone is at fault except me and being outraged that i should have to feel bad because of other people being incompetent. I have a very narcisstic side which is truly ugly! Sometimes i am so far away from my feelings that i think i'm making it all up! Half the time i feel as though these feelings belong to someone else not me, i'm not entirely convinced that is not the case...but i won't get into that paranoid idea! I don't have alters in the sense that i have completely seperate personalities (like in DID) but i am very segregated so i would say i have different parts that don't feel like me but i know are me. Generally i do refer to these parts in the 3rd person because they aren't me so to talk about them as if it were wouldn't feel right and it would feel as though i'm denying them. Sometimes i do feel i'm a stranger to myself. I really do want to get better, it has taken me a very long time to get to the point of admitting that i need to take some personal responsibility for my life. And i know it is a long road and i will slip back into victim mode several times...i know that need to be rescued will never go away! My goad for therapy is simply to stop feeling dead inside. But i don't know what that will entail for the future! With all you have told me about your childhood (and i don't pretend to know it all from these posts so please don't feel i'm implying this) but it would make sense that the little voice in your head is wanting to make you believe that you must be all those things. It sounds like you were asked to be that from a very young age. It sounds like you were asked to be an adult far too young and didn't get the time to be childish and selfish. I think it is bashed in from us from very young that being selfish means being bad but looking at children now i realise it is perfectly okay to be selfish as a child. It is when we're forced not to be selfish without understanding why, that we're made to feel our feelings of selfishness are somehow wrong. I think Mindfulness seems to be the key to recovery. I think that i will have to do some investigations! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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