What Is Wrong With You?

[bena.baby]

i can't even be bothered to think about my own mother enough to add much to this except that i relate relate relate.

[hummm_mabbe]

Ok, I'm feeling very triggered now - this is fucking painful right? But I want to stick with it, and I want to be honest. I want you to understand that I am not like your mother because I have just heard this and boy I feel immense immense undescribable guilt, but something I know I must face and will now change. I hope you will still accept me and be my friend after I tell you, but if I don't share it and I carry on sitting here being your friend and not telling you I will feel like a fake.

I have done that to Tiegan, when she wanted to continue a relationship with my mother, I have felt wounded deeply and instead of thinking of Tiegan and finding a way to stick to my decision of keeping her away from my mother out of her best interest at heart, which is perfectly valid, I have felt I needed to defend myself and told Tiegan that she has no idea what my mother is like and then described some of the stuff and how cruel she had been to me, and told her things like if she ever has her own opinion my mum would treat her that way too (which I know to be true) and that her love, which seems unconditional and feels warm and wonderful now, would be the perception that so drastically changes and will hurt her in the future and I've said she has no idea what my childhood is like.

I know now that was wrong to do, thank you, I hope we can still be friends, even if you think you need a little time away from me because of this and want to be angry at me that is ok.

Hi Sammy

Theres no need to wrry, to me this is somewhat different. Yes I do think a child needs to be given a choice, but what you are doing is sifferent to what my mum did. You know how your mum affected you, and you are trying to protect her from that. I dont know, maybe there are other feelings there too - but with me, it was that same line no matter what it was. It was just the standard thing, whenever I felt angry or upset at her. You are talking about one limited thing - it doesnt apply to ALL of her emotions and needs. For me it was any kind of negative emotion displayed in front of or about her, and that is deeper than what you are talking about there I think.

Huggles

Ross

[hummm_mabbe]

i can't even be bothered to think about my own mother enough to add much to this except that i relate relate relate.

makes sense, I understand

:hug2:

[hummm_mabbe]

*Mrs cellophane waves back*

Perhaps if I stand sideways they'll see me???

Ooo like a 2d being in a 3d universe lol .. how very quantum or summink

Aww poor mr cellophane, I enjoyed Cafe Rouge the musical tho, was gooood. Not cuz of schmexy ladies in stockings honest lol

[Roses]

It was totally cos the the ladies in stockings!!! You are an alpha male after all babe I'd be disappointed if it was for any other reason ;)

[Sammy]

((((((((Ross))))))))))) ty, was getting scared then. I know I was wrong still, because I know the overriding feeling I had was like I was being betrayed, mum was winning, daughter loves her more, took sides. I know that is not the case, but it was how I felt in that moment, and I acted wrongly on that. You're right though that it was one occasion, although there have been similar events too where I acted on those similar types of thoughts, but it is very rare, most times I can be objective and put myself in my daughters shoes to fill her needs and I just need to learn to do that even when I feel triggered, maybe not act on impulse but take a step back, maybe wait a while before I reply to her so that I can get perspective and then respond in a way that is with her feelings in mind.

I am glad you are talking about things you feel parents have done wrong, because even if it doesn't apply to me in the whole sense of it, I can learn about my own parenting through it, also identify with you due to my own childhood that feels quite similar and definately with the core beliefs instilled in us and the feelings we now have because of it.

It's as though you are able to put in words what I cannot yet but it's helping me to direct my own thoughts. Things you said yesterday were repeated in different words today to me by someone, and 2 other people on here have said the same thing too but in different words and now I can feel my mind shifting, changing direction and becoming clearer.

I don't want to make this about me though, this is about you, but I did want you to know how valuable you are simply by being here, by sharing your thoughts and feelings and by talking about your life, your childhood, therapy, all of it. You are a special person, you are unique, individual, intelligent, insightful.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Lick

Its like a few people have said before, its not the one or two things that cause the damage (unless they are BIG things of course, like obvious abuse but thats not what we are talking asbout here) - its the chronic stuff, I guess you could call it the attitude of the relationship. I know I am right when I say it about my mum, because its what my sister always said about her, and parts of her character have been corroborated by my dad. What from moment to moment may not have been a terrible thing, after a while becomes a very big thing - like water dripping on a rock. One or two drops does very little, but the constant splashing over many years carves a trough.

It has happened many times in my threads that me talking about my mum has made other mums on this site doubt themselves and feel guilty. I do regret that, but I always want to point out that they are not my mum, I am not their child, and that one or two incidents in their lives are not necessarily the same as the constant flow of it in mine. I know my mum always felt very worried that she might repeat her past with me, treat me as her mum did. But mum never looked with any depth into what she was doing, and to paraphrase Alice Miller and a well known war historian, what we do not understand in ourselves we are doomed to repeat with others. This may only be a general truism, and I would also want to say dont panic over it or obsess whether you are recreating my past in your life. Just be aware of signs, and be open to the idea that people make mistakes. The thing about accepting mistakes is that we can be more open to recitfying them. The biggest mistake my mum made was that she wanted to live in denial that she could be wrong, it was impossiblt to criticise her. I wanted her to see that just because A child might criticise you or get angry, doesnt make you evil, a failure. It just means that the child is using the only way it knows to try to express what its feeling. If you can accept those feelings without guilt, self attacking, or teying to dicsount it, then I belive your children are the best possible source to learn from. They will tell you what they need, but it means being able to separate your own sense of failure or defensiveness or a belief that they will "become little tyrants / spoiled" (I still think limits are important after all) from their needs and feelings. For my mum, my criticism of her just felt like her mum attacking her. When I tried to express my feelings, I just became her abuser in her mind. She could no longer see me.

[Sammy]

One or two drops does very little, but the constant splashing over many years carves a trough.

Social worker said that to me today too.

I agree with it, and no won't obsess or over worry now, but still feel I have learned something valuable here today.

I don't think you should regret anything you've said, it has helped me at least, and I hope by talking about it that it helps you too.

And I will also try to take on board what you have said about when a child displays anger directed at me, although normally I think I handle that ok anyway, due to my own insight.

I have never seen my children as the abuser though either, in fact I look at Tiegan and I think/worry that she is very much like me, in fact everyone says she is, and I therefore worry that I am the abuser, and then I try to overcompensate by becoming obsessed with family time, quality time, one on one time, trying to encourage her to speak to me.

I'm currently working on that and trying to get balance and consistency though, trying to take a step back and work from there. Trying to ensure she doesn't feel pressurised and that I'm not over bearing or pushy, trying to let her have space and to just let her know that if she wants to, when she is ready she can talk to me, rather than pushing her to as I used to.

I think though as you said you can focus so hard on trying not to be like your parents that you go perhaps to the other extreme, and it's only by trying to take a step back from that and have insight into yourself, your actions and your childs needs through realistic perception rather than projection that you can find that balance, I'd like to think I'm achieving that for the most part and as you say learn to just accept that I have made some mistakes and move past them, learn from them.

And you know what, if I think about it, really think about it, I think I would have felt ok today if I'd had a mum like that, regardless of all the trauma I've been through unrelated to my parents themselves.

I think I'm going to enjoy therapy too!

Do you believe you can resolve, come to terms with, accept, feel fulfilled/satisfied, lose the vacuum/hole that you feel now about your mother and family one day? Through therapy?

*hint that me trying to get back on topic, feeling I've hijacked your thread*

[Wobbles]

Hey Rossie,

Big huge huggles.

You know we have far too much in common when it comes to our mothers. Mine seems to be EXACTLY like yours.

I continue to be astounded at the levels she goes to. After 29 years, why is she still able to shock me? I suppose because the things she does and says are just so dumbfounding, i can't understand why ANYONE would behave the way she does, let alone my own mother.

I have the benefit of having no contact whatsoever with mine now. She lives about 10 minutes away from me. And i finally cut ALL contact about 2 months ago. My sister is a lesbian and her and her partner have a 13 month old baby boy. For the first 11 months of his life, she had a bond with him, saw him regularly (only because my sister always took him to her). The problem is that she has a boyfriend who is a complete and utter wanker, who has abused my sister. She explained to mother that the boyfriend was never welcome in their home again and would not be allowed to be around the baby. So of course this has pissed mother off, and instead of attempting to have a seperate relationship with baby for herself, she is ignoring his existence. Because my sister didn't actually give birth to him, her partner did, mum has dumped the partner, and the baby. So now my son, as well as my nephew, have no grandparents.

SHe says the most horrific things but then can't understand why people would be upset. I've tried so many times to make her understand why i feel the way i do, and it just never sinks in. It's always about her, how she feels, how i'm MAKING her feel, how selfish i am, how fucked up i am, how not even my father liked me and it was my fault he killed himself. Of course it had nothing to do with the fact that she dumped him, told him it was temporary, that they would get back together, and then proceeded to see other men and have my sister and me lie for her.

Narcissist is right. Completely incapable of empathising. The world revolves around her and if your world doesn't revolve around her too, you're not worthy. So therein lies a lifetime of invalidation, hurt, etc.

I don't miss my mum. My life is much better without her in it. I'm slowly getting over the need to have a mother figure. I'm saddened for my son that he has no grandparents, but with who he has as an option, he's better off having none.

I've realised i'm not little E anymore, i'm big E and she will no longer have control over me or my emotions. SHe's the one that's had the problem all these years, not me.

Ross, can i ask, why do you still read your mothers letters? It seems to be she's writing them in a 'Ha, see what you're missing, you insolent little child, you can't live without me, and i won't let you forget about me'. It's invalidation and hurt all over again, why do that to yourself?

Neither mother has the intelligence or insight, self awareness or ability to really 'see' the damage they have done, and certainly not capable of processing such complicated information when it's offered to them. So they pay lip service, play it down and invalidate us all over again.

Anyway, sorry i've rambled.

Exx

[hummm_mabbe]

Do you believe you can resolve, come to terms with, accept, feel fulfilled/satisfied, lose the vacuum/hole that you feel now about your mother and family one day? Through therapy?

*hint that me trying to get back on topic, feeling I've hijacked your thread*

Lol no worries lick

I guess I am taking it on trust that I can. Everything Ive read, the experiences Ive already had, the smaller changes I see and the fact that so far they fit what Ive read, makes me believe that yes, it is possible. I know I can never have it in the way I needed it at the time, and that there may still be grief, but I believe its possible to stop it from driving the present and to finally be in touch with all the positive feelings too, and to live with those in balance with the bad (as everyone has bad feelings as well as good, the human condition I guess). If I can do that, then I believe that eventually I can have that sense of fulfilment, as much as anyone else can.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Wobbles

I think the reason I read the letters is because of something that happened back in 2003. I was in CBT, and though I realise now that it was the therapist more than the therapy that made the change, nonetheless I DID change. Its possible that maybe I just felt I was becoming successful, getting over my problems, being popular etc and so that made it easier around her, but nonetheless I found her so much easier to tolerate. It was like when she did what she did, I didnt care so much. I knew I had someone there for me, with my T, who would give me what I needed. I even talked about her to my T, to figure out how could I handle her. I realise now the CBT advice given wasnt what made the difference, because it no longer works - it was more the fact I knew I had someone there for me. Now its true that all those other things did happen - I could do better at work, I made more friends, I felt attractive. Ill be honest - it fed into my perfectionism / ststus seeking tendency a lot, and so I was on top of the world for what might have been less than optimum reasons. But at the same time, I WAS forming real relationships where I hadnt before. The things that usually got me totally bent out of shape no longer phased me - and that wasnt only my mum, it was EVERYTHING.

But because of that experience, I belive that there will come a time when i can just say "thats how she is, what a pain in the ass" but not be completely destroyed by it as I have been today. Ive been there once, so I feel I can get there again. And I suppose, I would like to have her in my life in some way. Keeping her at a distance feels like an interim measure until such a time as I can deal with her and she doesnt send me back into my cycle. Again from what I have read and experienced, I belive its possible.

Not to sound horrid, but although there are similarities in the cycles of your mum and mine, I feel like what yours did to you, and carried on doing, were a lot worse. For me once I no longer need something from her I cannot get, because I am getting it from elsewhere and have grieved for what has been lost, I belive I can at least have a superficial relationship with her. My worry right now is that because of my guilt and sadness, I will be pulled back into that guilting cycle.

It seems the guilt comes from two things: an image - 1) her on her death bed and my overpowering sense of loss and guilt. Its an image im fairly sure she placed there, but nonethless I need to lose it 2) The fear that my whole family will punish, be ashamed of me, reject me. That i will be held in contempt. Something that I realised today was that I never got anything from them anyway - I wouldnt be losing anything positive that I currently have, apart from an unfulfilled wish that things could have been different. I think thats the thing - letting go of the unfufilled wish, and of the guilt. I think then I will be free.

Ross

[Sammy]

That also describes me Ross, I have those guilt thoughts too. My mum and I have not spoken in 2 years, I have been ok with that, been happier, mental health improving etc... But then cuz grandad died, it's like she's used the opportunity she's been given to weedle her way back in, except I don't want her in my life anymore.

The confusing thing for me is that I knew I didn't want her in my life anymore, yet when grandad was in hospital I was considering starting that relationship back up. People say it's because I still have that little spark of hope that she will change, I know it's not, others say it's because I still want her to love me, maybe but I know that she won't, I've accepted that and also now would be too little too late even if she did change overnight, so I know I don't want her in my life, I knew even when considering letting her back in, it was not what I wanted.

It was guilt, it was feeling sorry for her, feeling that as her daughter I should have compassion for her, sympathise with her, be good to her, comfort her and let her in even knowing she will just abuse and invalidate again.

I got over that, I avoided her at the wake and I'd fixed myself up so that I was not going to let her in. Then out of the blue she calls, she sounds nearly in tears, timid and quiet and she calls me sweetheart and asks how I am. My dad in the background telling me to hang up the phone, I wanted to desperately but I couldn't do it, I could not hang up that phone, I had a need to hear what she had to say and I couldn't bare to hurt her by hanging up that phone on her.

So I listened, I let her say all she had to say, she invited me out for dinner on boxing day, wanted the whole family to be together at the pub grandad used to go to. I politely told her I already had plans, she said if I change my mind would I promise to call her, I said I would think about it, told her my dad was there and I needed to hang up now, said bye and hung up.

I'm confused by my reactions, but I know that it is out of a sense of duty, guilt, emotional blackmail over many years from her, making me feel responsible for how she feels, feeling that even though intellectually I know that she brought all this on herself, that it is her fault she no longer has anyone in her life other than her wimp of a husband who's like a lap dog, even though I know she caused all this, I still feel it's my responsibility, my fault, I'm rejecting her, abandoning her despite that it was in fact her that did all those things to me time and time and time again.

I too want to feel that I am only doing to her what she has done to me time and time again, reacting to that, that I have no responsibility to her, but inside it just feels like tit for tat, no matter how much I tell myself that I'm doing it out of self preservation and not out of any ill will at all, not out of a desire to punish her or get revenge, I still feel that is what it is, that is what it feels like.

Although I know that I would be very happy if I knew she was fulfilled in her life, content, happy and we just had no contact. I have no desire to hurt her, punish her, I don't want her to suffer or be miserable, I just simply don't want her in my life, I just need to get that to the point where I feel I'm not punishing her when I say no to her, or when I hang up the phone on her, or when I tell her I don't want her in my life, to really feel or even for her to know that I'm not doing it for ulterior motives.