Genetics

[flatline]

Good evening Friends.

Do you think Mental disorders are genetic? in my case, i come from a very sick family (LOL) sorry for laughing. My late dad was scitsophrenic. my sister has bipolar disorder, the other one suffers from GAD as well. i just thought about this because i don't want to produce children with mental health problems. my Girlfriend's healthy, apart from the headaches she gets all the time, i think it's from her nagging though.

Thanks for your reply's.

[roxy222]

read the gene illusion, it explains so much

[hummm_mabbe]

Now that sounds like an awesome book, if it didnt cost nearly £20

Might see if I can get it somehow on the cheap ....

Ross

[flatline]

Thanks Roxy for that.

It just hurts me alot to read up on schizophrenia. lots of painful memories of my dad arise. and i'm the kind of the guy that spent years trying to find a living role model. so i just developed rage, anger and frustration within me. to be a little like my dad. i guess being a young man violence is masculine.

[Data]

I believe that some mental problems, e.g. personality disorders, are passed from parent to child through defective parenting.

[roxy222]

Now that sounds like an awesome book, if it didnt cost nearly £20

Might see if I can get it somehow on the cheap ....

Ross

interlibary loans, £5 a time, access to every libary in britain

i also love oliver james' they fuck you up, which is far to much of an easy read, and by no means spot on, but has a fantastic explaination of the proportion of genetic influence and enivromental etc and based on a wider range of research than any other study

[hummm_mabbe]

Thx roxy im going to see if my library can do that Looked up the blurb, I read another book that was similar - Models of Madness: Psychological, Social and Biological Approaches to Schizophrenia. They slagged the twin studies too which made me happy

Ross

[roxy222]

most of the critics of twins studies miss out an important part too, that the attachment experience is entirely individual, even with twins, almost allways the smaller twin recieves poorer care and less of the mothers time than the larger one, its an evolutioary thing, bigger babies are more likely to be healthier so we automaticly fidn them more attractive and respond better to them, and in twins this ofcourse means one gets slightly less of this care necessary for healthy attachment, ofcourse that needent be a significant difference as an aware mother will absolutely make efforts to address this balance, and i imagine many not so aware but v caring mothers will do so automaticly also, but we cant help how subconcious biological drives kick in, in terms of variables for research this is enough of a difference to effect the out comes and disprove the supposed eveidence that genetics is at the root of mh.

[Data]

My therapist believes that almost nothing is genetic.

The things like.. how we understand ourself, how we understand and relate to others, how we cope with our emotion and life's stresses... are all culturally dependent. A tribesman from Papua New Guinea deals with them differently to a London stockbroker to an american Jew. So.. because these things depend on our culture (our 'tribe'), we learn them from our parents. If your parents are messed up, you don't learn things and as a result your head is messed up also.

[roxy222]

My therapist believes that almost nothing is genetic.

The things like.. how we understand ourself, how we understand and relate to others, how we cope with our emotion and life's stresses... are all culturally dependent. A tribesman from Papua New Guinea deals with them differently to a London stockbroker to an american Jew. So.. because these things depend on our culture (our 'tribe'), we learn them from our parents. If your parents are messed up, you don't learn things and as a result your head is messed up also.

i would mostly agree. i think people have genetic sucpetabilitys, and that theres some biological influences also, like extreeme stress while preganant can effect things, but mostly who we are comes from envirmental effects, and enviroment as a baby is virtually dependant on the treatment from the primary attachment figure

[Roses]

Not read all of this but my Grandma has a PD, my Mum has anger issues, my older bro has OCD.

[Data]

My therapist believes that almost nothing is genetic.

The things like.. how we understand ourself, how we understand and relate to others, how we cope with our emotion and life's stresses... are all culturally dependent. A tribesman from Papua New Guinea deals with them differently to a London stockbroker to an american Jew. So.. because these things depend on our culture (our 'tribe'), we learn them from our parents. If your parents are messed up, you don't learn things and as a result your head is messed up also.

i would mostly agree. i think people have genetic sucpetabilitys, and that theres some biological influences also, like extreeme stress while preganant can effect things, but mostly who we are comes from envirmental effects, and enviroment as a baby is virtually dependant on the treatment from the primary attachment figure

I agree. There are probably some things that are genetic and there are also environmental influences.

However, the effect of parental upbringing is poorly understood and underemphasised.

[pepsimeg]

well heres my experience, my biological parents both have mental health probs, my biological brother does and so do i and yet my biological sister has no mental health problems - seems she got lucky and missed out on the madness

we all grew up with the abusive parents, so im baffled is it nature or nurture ?

My daughter has mental health probs and she never had a bad upbringing but has she learnt them from me ?? - but then again my son is totaly sane - lucky boy !!

[flatline]

So i don't think i will have children. even though we are all born to die. living with mental conditions is a living hell for me. i see it as, being selfish passing corrupted genes onto the next generation, there are far to few cases where a child doesn't have these problems.

thanks for your response people.

keep well..

[Roses]

Hmmm that's pretty harsh I think that the genetic links for things such as diabetes, learning difficulties and other problems are probably more likely than the genetic probability of mental health problems. I think that if you are considering the possibility of your potential child having MH issues you need to see a genetic counsellor, this is a free service you can get referred to through your GP or your Midwife if you are already pregnant or and expecting partner.

[hummm_mabbe]

This reply is dead long, so I know only about 2 people will read it, but mehh here goes anyway as its relevant

The theory I keep hearing most about is the 'biopsychosocial' one - the idea that there are certain 'sensitivities' in a person biologically, but that they must interact in some way with psychology and social environment to cause problems. At the same time, expose a 'normal' child to a damaging environment or one lacking key emotional needs, and you will more than likely get problems too. Its a spectrum.

There are so many things that can mean one sibling gets ill while another doesnt - coping style being a prime one. My sister is extremely aggressive - so even though she has been exposed to the same envitonment, her coping style of screaming and intimadation helped her cope with my family - mum and dad would back off. I was 4 years younger, and I had the parental AND her aggression to deal with. Under all that weight, my coping style tended towards withdrawal. There is also a field of psychology called family ecology or systems psychology (I think) that says each child will try to find their own 'niche'. Much like different animals in the wild all eat different things - eg birds like worms, lions go for a wildebeest - and so everyone has enough, so children will find their own ways of trying to get what they need - if its actually available. As emotional 'supply' dwindles (eg in a dysfunctional family environment) then so competition for the same limited supplies increases. The most violent or aggressive, or simply adaptive, will tend to 'win' (missing of course the fact that it would not be a competition in the first place if the environment were adequate). One child ends up with mental health problems, the other sails through life - though perhaps with more 'hidden' difficulties that dont quite meet criteria for mental illness. Equally, less aggressive but otherwise adaptiove coping responses might lead to that happy go luck sibling. It all depends which coping style the child adopts, and that can come from which parent they most identify with and so choose to learn from, and the feedback that coping style engenders - hence 'systems'. My sister copied my dads aggression, I copied my mums submissiveness.

At the same time, there are things like nerve conduction and the bodies natural response to stress. That is to say, some peoples nerve endings - and so bodily emotional response - may be naturally higher. This is what people often talk about as inborn temperament. Without adequate emotional training in the form of mirroring, soothing, validation, understanding, a natuirally high emotional reaction (or even an untrained or corrupted 'normal' one) will not be tempered. If the parents decide this over-emotionality is bad or wrong, maybe 'weak' or 'pathetic', the child grows up feeling that the deepest things about who they are - their feelings - are wrong, whilst simultaneously being assaulted by painful feelings they cannot change or understand. Add trauma or abuse to that mix, and you have the psychological equivalent of nitroglycerine.

So there are lots of ways that biology and environment interact. Most books I have read have said that even if biology does have a hand, an adequately supportive environment will ameliorate much of the difficulties. A dysfunctional one will increase it - and as we know, 'dysfunction' does only mean obvious abuse - it can simply be that self same negative attitide towards emotion. Bar off feelings through shame, and you have the makings of low self esteem and depression, and an ongoing sense of emptiness.

Even though its may be built on a foundation that is part biology (a fact that invalidating parents and even psychiatrists miught like to use to 'blame the patient/child'), it is the environment that detrmines what path those inputs push the person down. It is what molecular geneticists call 'gene expression' - whether or not a biological marker or trait is actually seen or manifested in the person. Psychiatry has failed to identify the 'mental illness' genes, and even if it had, it would need to prove how they are expressed. Thats why there are so many books like the Gene Illusion shouting so loudly about how genetic research has been shamelessly promoted without an opportunity for the counter arguments to be heard. Data from twin studoes and MRI scans is routinely mis-interpreted in the name of bolstering theories that do not have the truth behind them to back up the power of the claims made about them.

NB all of the above is a generalisation of what I have read, im sure there are holes in it. Im sure you could find explanations for those holes if you read the literature out there (or maybe just generate more questions!). There is a huge amount been written on this topic, I am trying to avoid writing a thesis :)

[flatline]

Thanks Ross,

That information is great, and yeah the environment in which we live does affect our behaviour from an early age. because for me personally in my childhood days i were in a very violent household more of your average parent arguments were going on, i use to witness my mom getting beat up into a pulp, on many occasions i would get involved, and be kicked around and punched and alot more horrible things happened. i was allowed to watch age restricted movies, play violent video games, and it was okay, because my dad said so. my mom was generally cut off from what were right. only when he passed away she were able to turn the tables, and involve my sister and i, in a safer more humane home. because my dad smoked and drank. when he were upset he made me read the bible, almost as if it were my fault he were upset. i had to do as i was always told, there wasn't much freedom given to me, the death of my dad, changing towns, changing lifestyles were a bit hectic for me, so inturn, i became rebelious from a lack of freedom, i too wanted to do that. because it were so cool. and as far as i could remember i were installed with fear from this. because i were frightened to ask questions, to be honest, because i knew that the smallest thing would send my dad flying off his head, and i'd be beaten again. i feel that my early years of development 0-6years old were so screwed up. and thats what made me feel certain emotions i do have. then also knowing that my parent may have a condition, perhaps made me more interested in his behaviour so i became like him mentally. and i guess over time not dealing with these thoughts that became installed into me, it made me more anxious and self seeking if i may say that. a concern i may have though, is we are raised by our parents/gaurdians or whoever, and along the way we would pick up on certain of their behaviours, lifestyles etc. How different could we make our lives from theirs, if we don't or can't do any better. if we in a situation where we feel withdrawn as individuals and we prefer to keep away from social situations, we enjoy our own company and current people alike. will our children learn to adapt to how we do things, will they then build on how we behave, what we teach them, and believe. i think yes. because a child is not going to know any better and if a child has anxious parents, they to have a strong chance of being anxious, iv seen it in my friends, in myself. so yeah. as far as children are concerned, the best thing for me to do. is get my life back, sort out challenges, and then when i'm ready, i will have children of my own. because in the end, we don't know how our children will be born, physically or mentally. it just happens. the thing is also, i do want to fix mistakes my parents have made. so to do that, it would make sense in me having my own kids.

[lauraw2693]

Not read all of this as my head hurts but thought I'd add my experience - my grandad had OCD, severe anxiety & depression and (didn't know this til after he died) spent a lot of time in and out of psychiatric hospitals. My sister had severe OCD & depression, shes a lot better now but spent a few years in hospitals. There's no one else that I know of in my family that has a diagnosed disorder, although I see some aspects of BPD (which is my diagnosis) in my dad.

I think if it's in the family there is a genetic predisposition to develop mental health problems but environmental factors maybe bring it out, but this is just my opinion. I was starting to suffer with my depression & anxiety from quite a young age when my sister first went into hospital, I saw what it did to my parents so I thought I won't tell them I'm struggling & I'll deal with things on my own, I went on for years like this and think this has made things a lot worse.

[roxy222]

just because one sibling doesnt get techniqually mentally unwell doesnt mean they necessarily end up mentally healthy either

iv seen plenty familys where one sibling has mh problems and the other is a super compulsive over achiever, or the other one is the one who identifys with the abuser and replays the same patterns, or maybe appears to have no problems at all but just got real good at hiding everything inside and pushing it all down or has v low emotional intelligence and lacks empathy and is a v poor partner/friend/family member because of that. not having a mental health dx does not equal being mentally well and a productive human being, there are lots of other variations on being effected by a disfunctional upbringing. its also not uncommon in diisfunctional familys for one child to be treated worse than the others, for one to be scapegoated, and often this can be done in very subtle ways, sometimes even unintentional ways, and this can then also create a situation where all the siblings appear fine bar one black sheep. also care and attention given at the initial years of a persons life are by far the most important time, if say one child is five and the parents are happy and caring then when the second is born they split and the mother drinks then this will cause more long term damage to the new born whose attachment needs are likely neglacted due to drink than the older child as atleast that child has had its initail needs met and already developed a stable sence of self. obviously this is just a rough example, im not trying to be scientific here or anything.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Roxy

I agree with you. My sis has had loads of relationship issues and suffered with depression and even struggled with alcohol, though never diagnosed with anything. Thats sort of what I was trying to say when I said about 'hidden difficulties that may not meet criteria for a mental illness'. Perhaps 'sails through life' was a bit of an extreme statement in the light of the one that followed it You have explained it better. Also agree with the stuff about the changes in the marriage from first child to second - very much feel like thats part of what happened in my family too.

Ross

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Flatline

I think its also worth talking about what 'heredity' is often taken to mean, and the difference in the ways problems can be handed down.

If you grow up in a dysfunctional family, and learn to relate to others in that same dysfunctional way, and you never challenge or change that, then its very likely that some of those same dysfunctional ways of relating will drive how you relate to your kids. It may be easy to spot obvious ones - like "my dad used to hit me, so I wont do that to my kids". But if you are not fully aware of the deeper nature of the dysfunction - for example a dismissive attitude to emotion, or an over-focus on power and control or status - then its very likely this component will be passed on, whether or not you are able to change certain specific behaviours in your own life. You need to change the way you actually relate to your own emotions as well as the world.

Rather than it being hereditary in the way that eye colour or hair colour or height may be, relational style that leads to depression and anxiety is more like a family heirloom that you choose to hand down because it may seem to be the right thing, or even the only thing, at the time.

Right now it feels like you have a deep intolerance and dismissal of your vulnerable feelings, that your desire for the future is to get rid of anxiety and become strong and invulnerable. What you experienced at the hands of your father would have been intolerable for any child, and it must have hurt, confused and frightened you, it certainky would have me. Given what you say about your father, and also the logic of strength being the oppsosite of fear, it makes sense to pursue strength. But this way of relating to yourself seems to make you dismiss the real feelings you do have, and the more you demand they change, the more they stay the same. You are treating yourself with the same attitude of contempt that you describe your father using. Although it would be an alternative way out for you, the idea of having real compassion for yourself seems worlds away, almost repellent. I hope that this is something that can happen for you as a result of the mindfulness and so on - it something I struggle with too, and the reason I am saying this is because I would like to think I could save you the heartache of banging on that wrong door for years to come. Perhaps I am overstepping a boundary with saying that, if so I apologise. I feel that as bizarre as it sounds, and as sappy, saccharine or ill-deserved as self compassion may seem for you, genuine compassion and acceptance actually leads to a sense of belonging, strength and safety. Something inside of you hurts, is frightened, and is lonely. Whatever it is needs to feel acknowledged, safe, accepted and supported. Demands for change drive it further into fear, and that is possibly why your anxiety refuses to abate.

I appreciate this notion of family heirlooms may be extremely unpopular and perhaps upsetting to some - but it is best summed up in a phrase you will hear from most therapists - "what you do not hand back, you pass on".

Ross

[roxy222]

Hi Roxy

I agree with you. My sis has had loads of relationship issues and suffered with depression and even struggled with alcohol, though never diagnosed with anything. Thats sort of what I was trying to say when I said about 'hidden difficulties that may not meet criteria for a mental illness'. Perhaps 'sails through life' was a bit of an extreme statement in the light of the one that followed it You have explained it better. Also agree with the stuff about the changes in the marriage from first child to second - very much feel like thats part of what happened in my family too.

Ross

the changes stuff could work both ways too, if the stressful time is adjusting to the first child, or other stresses at that time, and then with later children maybe there is other positive changes in the family dynamic or the mothers well being.

[just.me]

My mother had an NB at 36 but that was of her own making.

My sister and I both suffer depression, my sisters is more severe than mine, and she has attempted suicide quite a lot, but she is a drug user, and that does cause chemical problems in the brain, and other brain cell probs.

I'm the only one with BPD.

I believe that my BPD was caused by a specific event at 14. I never once dreamed that I would ever get depression as I was the strongest, most successful in the family. How unlucky was I to get it five years ago.

Not sure it is genetic but more in part to do with the way in which we are raised and the environment within which we live, or are brought up in.

[Nikkie]

It's the old conundrum of "nature or nurture"?, both my Grandfathers were alcoholic abusives, I have no memory of either as my mother and her brother were put in an orphanage when their mother died at 39, my other grandmother "stood up to him" and he left her with 9 kids to bring up single handed. dad became a "violent husband" mum a confirmed alcoholic, my mother's brother had PD and my brother was a Heroin addict by the age of 19.

I had what can be called a "comfortable" childhood in terms of economics............. Dad made a lot of money in the 50's and 60's so we had a nice house, good holidays, cars etc............... but totally deprived in terms of emotional or affective support.

I then married a BPD sufferer (I was unaware of previous problems when I married him) who suffered a "relapse" after 10 years of marriage, when we already had 3 daughters.

I had always had problems "fitting in" with my peers due to frequent country changes during my parents divorce and no real idea of what was expected by society, I hadn't even thought of psychological problems and put my bad behaviour at school down to laziness.

After years of panic attacks and an abusive relationship, I found myself with 5 kids and attempting suicide, whilst functioning perfectly....... the house was immaculate (OCD) I was the life and soul of the party (Euforia) and a blubbering wreck (PND/MD) behind closed doors.

When my brother died of AIDS in 2002 it all went pear shaped and I found myself in a Psych ward drugged up to the eyeballs............ to be released after 3 weeks with no follow up plan.

6 months later Social services requested a "family profile" from the Monroe centre, whose recommendation was to put my sons up for Adoption and my daughters in permanent foster care as I was an unfit parent.(Too house proud, kids could speak eloquently and had never eaten in Mc'Donalds)

I cry myself to sleep every night looking at a photo of the sons I may never see again(now 10 and 8) and am unable to have a good relationship with my daughters (17, 21, 22) due to the depression. my family have had nothing to do with me since I was hospitalised as Psychological disorders don't fit with their perfect, middle class suburban, rotary club lifestyles.

My second daughter is a binge drinking drop out with a habitual drug using abusive boyfriend who will not accept that she needs to break the cycle..........

So there you go, it's a combination of Nature and Nurture but I have yet to meet any one from a family without predisposition that can relate to those of us that have to deal with the "dark side" every day of our lives.

Just my tuppence ha'porth.

Nikkie

[Benway]

hi Nkkie, and everyone else,

wish i had time to write more but i have T appt in 40 mins,

Nikkie- im so sorry for your loss, and let me say you re one strong person to have come thru- i have constant probs with my ex common law (12 yrs rel) he has kidnapped my son 3 times now and then puts in to the courts for custody- our laws are arcane(in ireland). my son is 14 and has already been drunk, thied hash, and valium. he is a lot like me at his age- 14, he sees a T and a psych, but i hope this early intervention and the fact he does trust and talk to his T will help. My 19 yr old is 'normal' - no issues yet...

I have faith in getting him back as i have good recent psych history, past 2 yrs.

Im adopted, never found my mum, but as she had me in a dublin catholic mothers home in the 70's i can only imagine he stress and fear she went thru carrying me.

My adoptive mum n dad were v middle class, ballet, boats, foreign city holidays all over the world, they had great jobs.

i was an only child, and how i wished for a bro or sis to 'take the spotlight' off me. I never lived up to 'expectations'. Now i have this huge identity crisis, to do with 'class' or rather, my accent, what i stand for, don't stand for, bla bla...

I have 'they f*k you up ' here on the shelf beside me, my concentration is shot tho, i can just about focus on magazine articles, but 'll give it a go, if you recommend it roxy.

wishing you all the best

xxx anne marie