Internal Mental Arguments

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi there

Lately I have realised how often my mind goes off down this unusual rabbit hole. Im sitting there minding my own business, or something will trigger this thought process, and suddenly I find myself having an argument with someone in my head.

It can be over pretty much anything - mental health issues, politics, things to do with being human, or why I do / dont do certain things. My opponent is always someone angry, opinionated, mocking and absolutely NOT open to listening to my views. Instead they want to angrily dismiss, criticise and demean them. I find myself getting drawn into what feels like a hopeless battle, futiley trying to justify myself whilst attempting to maintain some dignity, and I feel powerless, angry and horrible. All this can happen in a couple of seconds and my body responds with tension and sometimes even stomach aches. Im trying to use mindfulness to just be aware of them, catch them as they happen so that I can just mentally note them and interrupt them.

Really I just wondered if others experience this too? Constant internal arguments with an overpowering, uncaring and hostile opponent? A lot of the time mine seems to be like one of those really arrogant know all cab drivers you find from time to time ...

Ross

[walker]

yes

all the time

day in day out

but seem to struggle with the 'me' in it, so its like dif people arguing in MY head, but i dont know which, if any, is me

but then as its happening in my head - logic would say all me

logic can f off

cos i know they aren't me

but i dont know who is

sorry digress

yes

endless arguments about the most huge and the most trivial of things

am glad if you can hold onto a sense of 'you' within it all,

and as you say, they are full of disdain, criticism, etc

hang onto 'ross' with all your might

[donnam]

yes contantly, but it is the "same" voice doing both sides of the arguement, it neva gives up

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi walker

I guess the sense of me comes in because they are things I care about. The sensation is similar to when I have the argument in real life, so I am the one defending my idea or feelings.

Does it feel like the things those separate voices are arguing about, are important to you? Are they things you are concerned, worried, or care about? Or do they seem to be arguing about stuff that you couldnt give two shits about and are just using your head as an arena?

**hugs walker's head and evicts voices**

Ross

[hummm_mabbe]

Suppose should also add as a general note

Im not saying I hear voices - Im talking more about when you have a mental conversation. Im not getting auditory hallucinations in case anyone was worried

Ross

[hummm_mabbe]

yes contantly, but it is the "same" voice doing both sides of the arguement, it neva gives up

Sounds horrid So is it like someone elses voice, arguing with itself?

[walker]

yes ross

yes

they involve 'me' they are related to a 'me' i guess, as they argue about what i should/shouldnt do, say, think, eat, behave, believe,

its like there is someone - 'me' that has a need and then they instantly all jump out and row about it

and little 'me' is sat bewildered in the middle , head spinning round from one to another trying to work out if any of them are her, if any of them are right

its happening even now as i type

as i KNOW it is my hands typing and words from my head, but the b*stards are still telling me its wrong

ooooooooooooo

damn stupid head

i guess then i must have some sense of 'me' in there - as if it was just other buggars arguing about unrelated stuff, i would be freaked out by it

but this is oh so so familiar

[donnam]

the best i can describe it is like my thought process, arguing with itself, but not sure, there is only one voice eva in my head, but i dont know if anyone else actually hears themselves in their head, or whether it was just me, but it is that voice that argues with itself constantly.

sorry not good at explaining

cad

[Wobbles]

Uggh God yes, nearly constantly. I get so carried away with these internal mental arguements, sometimes with complete strangers that i am totally triggered by them, and end up experiencing some very intense and negative emotions.

I have been doing it with my sister lately, have always done it with my mum and husband, and if someone out in public pisses me off i do it with them. It can be pretty fierce, and i have to make a huge effort to stop myself because it can lead to a pretty big downward spiral.

[sanctuary]

Yeah I think I know what that feels like. Sounds a bit like a battle between the selves that we portray to the world when we haven't got the power of our own minds. I've just been reading something on the internet that might be helpful? I don't know, am just guessing a bit of calm mind in this situation would probably put an end to, or at least halt, the constant innner chatter/dialogue that can plague us.

xxxxx

http://www.pioneerthinking.com/meditation.html

[bena.baby]

yes rossy. all the time. about anything. eg boyfriend:

"yay, going to see bf later"

"yeah, bf who doesn't really love you"

"does too love you, loves you v much"

"as if, he's way too good for you"

"if anything, you're too good for him"

"yeah, you're right, he's a massive loser"

"we should just dump him, i mean, you did find a shirt with ruffles on the front in his wardrobe"

"omg, you are such a snobby bitch to be judging him on his clothes, no wonder he doesn't love you"

"ruffles on a SHIRT?"

"yeah you're right, it was really ruffly, dump him DUMP HIM"

"no cos i love him"

"yeah but he doesn't love you"

"you're right, it's cos i'm pathetic"

"you're not pathetic, you're amazing"

"god you're so arrogant"

and so on and so on and so on about every single little thing, from big stuff like relationships and career and views on big subjects and so on, to the tiniest stuff, leaving the house, eating an orange, what i'm doing on bloody cafe world on facebook.

[sanctuary]

lol esme way to go girl writing that all down explains so perfectly what it's like!! ARGH!!! :wink

[just.me]

Would this be where your head battles with itself, like Esme's - he be here soon, no he wont, he come up with some fucking excuse, the wanker.

But he has done so much, yeah but never got here has he! That type of thing.

[roxy222]

i get internal emotional arguements, not so much the mental kind, but i do reply old sits like this, from when i was younger and wished i knew how to defend myself and evidence my feelings, i will get caught up in thinking abotu what i shd have said or shd have done and reply it over and over and over, normally this feels like it comes out of the blue, althoguh im sure its triggered by something similar now. the emotional stuff, is something i find i give more time too, because it have a much bigger effect on my life, and for me i find i kinda need to ride the emotional arguement roller coster and stay with it and when i do everything calms right down safely, when i dont feel strong enough for this or when i dont feel safe thats when i still dissociate.

oh and the actual hearing voices thingy, thats actually v common, many non mh peeps have that at times too, and it comes from a similar mechanism of internalised outsiders (frequently parents or abusers) but with the hearing voices part it is so dissociated or pushed away or detached it feels like alien symtoms coming in from out side but its comes from the same lack of connection to the self.

when babies are little they look to the main attachment figure to have their inner feelings mirrored back to them, this is a very sublte but vital process (the importance of which can not be understated), but with children who have mothers who do not do that (some because they are abusive yes, but some just because they never had this experience and so dont know how to give it to their child) the child never has their feelings validated and therefore instead internalises the emotions of the mother. for example is a child is reaching for their own toy and manages for the first time and they are enjoying being capable and look to the carer for recognition that they did well and recieve smiles and well dones then the child will be able to think yes this is what feeling capable is like and this is good and welcomed, if the child recieves a telling off and are told they are bad and should not do that then they will feel confused and associate their own abilities with a threat to their mother and the risk of her rage, and therefore learn that leanring is not safe or welcomed and that they are bad for feeling interested in doing something for themselves, and in this way this creates a dissconnect for the child, where they must take on board the mothers identiy of limits and her disaprooval of spontaneity, as well as their own internal and natural longing to be their own spontaneous self. this type of conflict has a significant impact on all mh conditions, but especially on bpd (read the research on mentalisation and where that developed from). i think this split of the selves is evident in everyone to a small extent (because inner dialogue is a natural thing), but that it works in different ways with different people to create identity problems, unstable sences of self, loss of self, internalised varriations of parents and or abusers, some of which become split off in the form of voices of other symptoms and at the extreeme for those who have been through extreeme abuse with no support or attachment figure dissociated identities which is a natural reaction or a functional reaction to a very dysfunctional situation.

[Wobbles]

I think there's a difference between what esme's talking about and what Ross is talking about, if i have understood rightly.

I think Ross is more talking about having internal arguments with other people, like mother, friend, sister etc....where it's you fighting with them, whereas esme is talking more about fighting with yourself.

Am i right or have i misunderstood?

I do both. I fight with myself, but more often i fight with other people, they reply, is if in their own voice... i hope that makes sense.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi Wobbles

Yus you are right - its me trying to overcome this constant sense of being drowned out and defeated by others. The arguments are with other people, not myself.

That said, as you prolly know (but will write here anyways) from a schema point of view, even the voices that seem to be us arguing with ourselves are still actually us arguing with others, As roxy says, its an internalised voice. We hear the criticism and the put downs so often that eventually we take them on and do it to ourselves. One aspect of schema therapy is actually learning to realise that the voice that criticises ISNT you, even though it sounds and feels like you, and to see where the words and feelings come from. Its what they call making an "ego-syntonic" voice "ego-dystonic" - that is whether its identified as the self or not. For example nowadays I can hear clearly when the words or feeling is coming from my sister, my mum or from sundry bullies.

Im at the stage where I can identify those voices as 'other', but they still win 'in my body' if that makes sense. My gut feeling is that I am still powerless and stuck. The mindfulness 'noting' thing gives me the freedom to just say "oh a fight" and have it stop there, and the body sensations can often stop. When it helps, theres no need to fight back, because its like watching two people I dont know arguing and deciding to go sit in another room, closing a sound proof door behind me.

Ross

[hummm_mabbe]

i get internal emotional arguements, not so much the mental kind, but i do reply old sits like this, from when i was younger and wished i knew how to defend myself and evidence my feelings, i will get caught up in thinking abotu what i shd have said or shd have done and reply it over and over and over, normally this feels like it comes out of the blue, althoguh im sure its triggered by something similar now. the emotional stuff, is something i find i give more time too, because it have a much bigger effect on my life, and for me i find i kinda need to ride the emotional arguement roller coster and stay with it and when i do everything calms right down safely, when i dont feel strong enough for this or when i dont feel safe thats when i still dissociate.

oh and the actual hearing voices thingy, thats actually v common, many non mh peeps have that at times too, and it comes from a similar mechanism of internalised outsiders (frequently parents or abusers) but with the hearing voices part it is so dissociated or pushed away or detached it feels like alien symtoms coming in from out side but its comes from the same lack of connection to the self.

when babies are little they look to the main attachment figure to have their inner feelings mirrored back to them, this is a very sublte but vital process (the importance of which can not be understated), but with children who have mothers who do not do that (some because they are abusive yes, but some just because they never had this experience and so dont know how to give it to their child) the child never has their feelings validated and therefore instead internalises the emotions of the mother. for example is a child is reaching for their own toy and manages for the first time and they are enjoying being capable and look to the carer for recognition that they did well and recieve smiles and well dones then the child will be able to think yes this is what feeling capable is like and this is good and welcomed, if the child recieves a telling off and are told they are bad and should not do that then they will feel confused and associate their own abilities with a threat to their mother and the risk of her rage, and therefore learn that leanring is not safe or welcomed and that they are bad for feeling interested in doing something for themselves, and in this way this creates a dissconnect for the child, where they must take on board the mothers identiy of limits and her disaprooval of spontaneity, as well as their own internal and natural longing to be their own spontaneous self. this type of conflict has a significant impact on all mh conditions, but especially on bpd (read the research on mentalisation and where that developed from). i think this split of the selves is evident in everyone to a small extent (because inner dialogue is a natural thing), but that it works in different ways with different people to create identity problems, unstable sences of self, loss of self, internalised varriations of parents and or abusers, some of which become split off in the form of voices of other symptoms and at the extreeme for those who have been through extreeme abuse with no support or attachment figure dissociated identities which is a natural reaction or a functional reaction to a very dysfunctional situation.

Thank you for all that info, am always gobsmacked by your encyclopaedic knowledge

Ross

[hummm_mabbe]

yes rossy. all the time. about anything. eg boyfriend:

"yay, going to see bf later"

"yeah, bf who doesn't really love you"

"does too love you, loves you v much"

"as if, he's way too good for you"

"if anything, you're too good for him"

"yeah, you're right, he's a massive loser"

"we should just dump him, i mean, you did find a shirt with ruffles on the front in his wardrobe"

"omg, you are such a snobby bitch to be judging him on his clothes, no wonder he doesn't love you"

"ruffles on a SHIRT?"

"yeah you're right, it was really ruffly, dump him DUMP HIM"

"no cos i love him"

"yeah but he doesn't love you"

"you're right, it's cos i'm pathetic"

"you're not pathetic, you're amazing"

"god you're so arrogant"

and so on and so on and so on about every single little thing, from big stuff like relationships and career and views on big subjects and so on, to the tiniest stuff, leaving the house, eating an orange, what i'm doing on bloody cafe world on facebook.

This post made me lollalot

Ruffle shirts OMG

I had a shirt with mini ruffles a while ago, it was my pulling shirt. Til I got too tubby and its figure hugging metrosexuality wasnt working anymore. That and until I began working in the oil industry, where metrosexuality is on a popularity par with nazism.

Ross

[roxy222]

its important to recognise that the reason these voices eist is due to others, that the opinions epressed by them are others lies not your own truth, but its also important to accept that these voices or sides etc are now also part of you because if they have evolved this way its cause they had to and they have a right to have their existance acknowledged and allowed, not doing so would jst further disconnection in another way. its v v sad that we have to have sides to us like this. its v hard that we've developed this way. but thats part of survival and although it may not seem like it these parts played a v important function in that survival. if they come up in our lives now its cause they need a role now too, and often its important to redefine that role, to look at healthy functions these dysfunctional roles can take on, to reassure them whenever they fall back into old patterns, and to understand that they evidence the truama of the past. if we push away parts of us that have evolved in this way they will only fight back ten times harder and drive negative behaviours from our unconcious, atleast if we let all parts of us be present, be accepted, and even welcomed, then we can develope awareness of whats going on for us and find ways of minimising the negative roles these parts play.

like for exmaple maybe one way of letting these voices have recognition as part of you now would be by seeing their new function as indetifying when things are rough and you need some time for yourself. like often things getting triggered by something relatively similar in the present, like if these voices recognise that you are feeling this way because of something now then maybe that can be your signal to take some time out to care for yourself and revaluate, to grieve for the past pain triuggered and to gentley look at the present situation to examins if the person poses a threat to you or if the invalidation is actually unintentional, just the mere rub of different people with different ideas that are then influenced by their own feelings in need of protection. maybe this cd be the function of these voices, so that they can be allowed and accepted and you can be telling yourself it is ok to feel them, rather than pushing them away, or foisting your own powerlessness onto them.

what you said at the start about this triggering you feeling trampled over, invalidated, ignored etc (or thats the sence of it i got anyways) it still sounds like your looking for everyway possible not to feel those things, it still sounds like on an emotional level your looking for a way to avoid the feelings you cant bear the most, but its actually ok to feel those things, whether its past triggered stuff or in the present day it is ok to feel whatever you feel for whatever reason. im not meaning to be cheeky, but i still get this overwhelming sence of this, and please ignore this if im wrong, but especially whenever you write anything about schemas i allways feel like im woundering where you are in it all, where are your words and your connections, because in a way it sounds like you are using intellectual language (and someone elses intellectual language because schemas are someone elses (sertile and scientific and clinical) explainations imposed from the outside) to manipulate your emotional life and i jst feel that on one level there must be part of you that is alienated and invalidated by this. i understand identifying with intellectual explainations, and sometimes, many times, a certain amount of intellectual understanding can help us connect to the deep emotional life lost to us by past truama, but these explainations can also stand in our way of making a full emotional attachment to the deepest and most damaged parts, especially the ones that feel weak and little. and i guess i get the impression that you use them this way, as a defense against your own emotional words that would enable you to hear the most hurt parts of yourself. im sorry if this is out of line, but i feel like this jumps right out at me, and i dont want to not be honest. it almosts feels like your explainations of schemas are slighty removed from yourself and your are working to reach them, to fit yourself around them, and i appriciate some of that might be v helpful in recognising patterns but i also feel like your voice is lost in the middle of that, rather than the likes of the mentalisation based stuff where they use the persons own individual explainations and words so that they can start with what emotions they allready recognise and build from there so that the experience can allways be personal (not that im saying thats the ideal way either, i dont know enough about anything to be making that kind of judgemnt)

pls dont feel defensive, im not meaning to be hurtful, jst feels abit like theres a part of you lost to yoruself in what you write and well your nice so id rather say than not cause smtimes awareness can help with acceptance and you certainly deserve to accept and love yourself

[wordsmithy]

Sorry wrote it, thought it sounded stupid so I deleted it.

[walker]

that sounds like me wordsmithy

round round round and none of them let me out

[hummm_mabbe]

Sorry wrote it, thought it sounded stupid so I deleted it.

Aww tis ok no worries

Ross

[just.me]

Rossy and ruffle shirts, sounds so Gay! ha ha ha....

Tubby yeah righto.

I can relate to Esme but not to your initial whatchamacallit! I dont argue in my head with others.

[Barebones]

Hey ross, i have this gerbil on a wheel problem, it used to keep me up all nightt, then it came to through the day. More sleep i had the better, but no when i had certian things to sort out, the gerbil, made more noise. Luckhy me i was given anti P. what im trying to say is, normal people have arguments with themselves, it just depends on what ur aurguing about?

Majority of peeps argue within themselves, why do u feel that its not norma?

[Villan]

Hey Rossy

Just wann throw this into the pot...

Is it possible that you are kinda "future pacing" tis an NLP technique whereby you rehearse stuff yuo wanna say... could it be possible that these arguments are ones that you need to have with these people at some time and yuo are subconsciously rehearsing them...

I wont say more here cos you are perfectly capable of googling it and looking into it yourself if it does tickle your fancy...

Chippies xxx