hummm_mabbe Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Oh no sorry to hear that silverwolf Have a guilt free snurgle :hug2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted January 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 guilt free, unconditional huggles all round methinks xxx :hug2: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Aaaw thanks Ross n Chit - Guilt free snuggles rock x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 6, 2011 Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 Was pretty good programme :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted January 6, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 6, 2011 me thought so too... have recorded it so i can watch again... need to watch that stuff couple times to take it all in... :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aurorablues Posted January 7, 2011 Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 I missed it, will have to see if i can catch it on BBC iPlayer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted January 7, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 7, 2011 i think it is also repeated several times this week if u missed it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bena.baby Posted January 8, 2011 Report Share Posted January 8, 2011 got round to watching this stuff tonight, it was so interesting. had never seen that footage of the milgram experiment, really interesting to see it. also, was funny when the guy took the magic mushroom drug. chatty mcchatterson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Next Epi on Tonight BBC4 9pm Tis all about Emotions and from the below, could be a bit triggery..... From BBC website: Dr Michael Mosley continues his exploration of the brutal history of experimental psychology. Experiments on the human mind have led to profound insights into how our brain works - but have also involved great cruelty and posed some terrible ethical dilemmas. In this film, Michael investigates how scientists have struggled to understand that most irrational and deeply complex part of our minds - our emotions. Michael meets survivors - both participants and scientists - of some of the key historical experiments. Many of these extraordinary research projects were captured on film - a baby boy is taught to fear random objects, baby monkeys are given mothers made from wire and cloth, and an adult is deliberately violent before a group of toddlers. Michael takes part in modern day experiments to play his own small part in the quest to understand emotions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Only caught the last 15 minutes of that one, will have to watch tomorrow when its up on Iplayer. What did the stuff about 'an adult behaving violently in front of toddlers' have to say? What did they find? Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Villan Posted January 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 the kiddies copied the adults... experiment was beating the ^&*&% out of an inflatable doll... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 the kiddies copied the adults... experiment was beating the ^&*&% out of an inflatable doll... Hmm OK. Was there anything else, or was that just meant to say "kids who grow up around violence become violent"? Which isnt true I know, just wondered what the angle was. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 13, 2011 Report Share Posted January 13, 2011 Oh wow its already om Iplayer. Watching now :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Watched both of the episodes now. Very good. I didn't know until watching first episode that Pavlov also did experiments on kids, that was sick, Only heard about the dog thing, but not that they were operated on to measure the saliva. In 2nd ep found the conditioned fear of random objects interesting although the poor baby Albert, wonder if the conditioning ever left him as he died at 6yrs so no records. Heard about the monkey experiment with the replacement mothers before but not the 'well of despair' that was sad. So apparently emotions help our decision making, giving intuition rather than logic. (Would have been interesting to look at emotional dysregulation of BPD within this as surely then we should make the best decisions?!?) x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 So apparently emotions help our decision making, giving intuition rather than logic. (Would have been interesting to look at emotional dysregulation of BPD within this as surely then we should make the best decisions?!?) x You can view the statement "our emotions help us make decisions" from two perspectives. One perspective assumes that if they 'help' us make choices, our emotions must be right. The other assumes that emotions can influence our choices, making us take a decision that appears / feels correct, but which is not. People tend to confuse 'intuition' with "whats right", when in fact thats not correct. Something can feel good at the time and be utterly the wrong thing to do. We can 'follow our hearts' in love and be repeatedly hurt or disappointed. What we feel in our guts is only one piece of information that we have access to - the problem that the documentary is trying to point out is that usually, we arent even aware that its our emotions driving the choice. It seems 'rational', but may not be. We need to weigh that one piece of emotional information with all the other sources we have to inform us, but of course first we need to become aware that the influence exists. Much of that is often unconscious and not immediately obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 So apparently emotions help our decision making, giving intuition rather than logic. (Would have been interesting to look at emotional dysregulation of BPD within this as surely then we should make the best decisions?!?) x You can view the statement "our emotions help us make decisions" from two perspectives. One perspective assumes that if they 'help' us make choices, our emotions must be right. The other assumes that emotions can influence our choices, making us take a decision that appears / feels correct, but which is not. People tend to confuse 'intuition' with "whats right", when in fact thats not correct. Something can feel good at the time and be utterly the wrong thing to do. We can 'follow our hearts' in love and be repeatedly hurt or disappointed. What we feel in our guts is only one piece of information that we have access to - the problem that the documentary is trying to point out is that usually, we arent even aware that its our emotions driving the choice. It seems 'rational', but may not be. So in s/one without BPD then maybe their emotions work correctly to give more accurate 'hunch' as to decisions, whereas maybe for those with BPD have incorect emotional links exist which may explain why it's not so good for peeps to operate on their hunches? But yes i've always said it's emotion driving the choice and my cpn used to say no, thought , then emotion. anywho. x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi silverwolf This is the kind of thing you could write a book on really, and there are many different approaches to it, but I will try and explain what I know about it. I think its maybe helpful to look at human beings as being made of multiple parts that work together, two of the most obvious being logic and emotion. Someone with BPD may have much more powerful emotional reactions, which will tend to drive or dominate their logic as well, if not push it to one side on occasion. Its not necessarily that one is correct, and one is not - more that one might be more helpful to the person in terms of relationships, feelings and so on. Intuition is a massive blanket term that covers all the emotional learning we have in our lives. There are many regions of the brain that deal with memory, and there are many types of memory. A separate part of the brain controls emotional memory (fear, anger etc) as controls every day memory. If that emotional part has learned some 'unhelpful' patterns, or experienced many overwhelmingly painful events, thats what we will tend to respond with in a given moment, especially if the event that triggers it seems to hold some powerful emotional significance. Eg "I am going to be hurt, abandoned, taken advnatage of, and I am not going to be able to deal with it and I will be overwhelmed". There may be no thought that tells you that - you just feel it in your guts, shoulders, arms as a pain or impulse to act. Maybe rage or the urge to run away. You have memories of the type of person and situation in which those feelings came up. There is a mass of emotional information in there all waiting to get set off, and the more emotionally meaningful the trigger, the greater the reaction. Then the reaction may actually make the situation worse. But the trigger itself may not warrant the level of emotion that comes up in response, because the person is essentially responding to past experience, not the moment in question. They react to the current moment as if it is the same as that old thing that made them feel so bad and overwhelmed, but because the emotion is so immediate and powerful, the belief that this moment needs to be treated the same as that older moment tends to take over. We might respond to the horrible woman we work with in the exact same way we responded to our mum. We may react to the random guy on the street in the same way we did the school bully - whether they are actually the same or not. In fact the emotions can convince us that they absolutely are the same, before we have even had a chance to think. It all happens at a bodily level and may not include thought at all. There are many schools of thought when it comes to emotion and psychology. The one you mention there from your psych is the Cognitive behavioural model, though there are others. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 Hi silverwolf This is the kind of thing you could write a book on really, and there are many different approaches to it, but I will try and explain what I know about it. I think its maybe helpful to look at human beings as being made of multiple parts that work together, two of the most obvious being logic and emotion. Someone with BPD may have much more powerful emotional reactions, which will tend to drive or dominate their logic as well, if not push it to one side on occasion. Its not necessarily that one is correct, and one is not - more that one might be more helpful to the person in terms of relationships, feelings and so on. Intuition is a massive blanket term that covers all the emotional learning we have in our lives. There are many regions of the brain that deal with memory, and there are many types of memory. A separate part of the brain controls emotional memory (fear, anger etc) as controls every day memory. If that emotional part has learned some 'unhelpful' patterns, or experienced many overwhelmingly painful events, thats what we will tend to respond with in a given moment, especially if the event that triggers it seems to hold some powerful emotional significance. Eg "I am going to be hurt, abandoned, taken advnatage of, and I am not going to be able to deal with it and I will be overwhelmed". There may be no thought that tells you that - you just feel it in your guts, shoulders, arms as a pain or impulse to act. Maybe rage or the urge to run away. You have memories of the type of person and situation in which those feelings came up. There is a mass of emotional information in there all waiting to get set off, and the more emotionally meaningful the trigger, the greater the reaction. Then the reaction may actually make the situation worse. But the trigger itself may not warrant the level of emotion that comes up in response, because the person is essentially responding to past experience, not the moment in question. They react to the current moment as if it is the same as that old thing that made them feel so bad and overwhelmed, but because the emotion is so immediate and powerful, the belief that this moment needs to be treated the same as that older moment tends to take over. We might respond to the horrible woman we work with in the exact same way we responded to our mum. We may react to the random guy on the street in the same way we did the school bully - whether they are actually the same or not. In fact the emotions can convince us that they absolutely are the same, before we have even had a chance to think. It all happens at a bodily level and may not include thought at all. There are many schools of thought when it comes to emotion and psychology. The one you mention there from your psych is the Cognitive behavioural model, though there are others. Ross That makes sense, thanks for explaining Ross - you have such a good way of explaining stuff, have some huggles x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hummm_mabbe Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 That makes sense, thanks for explaining Ross - you have such a good way of explaining stuff, have some huggles x I guess just to add - thought is in there at some level. For example, someone might ask you "what are you feeling right now" and when you stop to take a look, you might go "well, I feel angry. When I look deeper, I think maybe I feel taken advantage of. That makes me want to chase that person down and give them a piece of my mind!". It is possible to put thought to emotion, to put feelings into words. But the idea that an explicit, conscious, verbal thought always comes before emotion, although highly subscribed to, isnt completely accurate. Thats why you might be able to come up with a 'rational alternative' in CBT that doesnt make you feel any better, because you may not believe it at the gut level yet. You need an emotional experience that confirms the 'new' belief at an experiential level, but even these new experiences can be passed through that same emotional lens. Thats why I think mindfulness is so powerful - because it allows you to watch 'the baggage' as it arises, and lets you step back from it. Once you step back, yes then alternative thinking may present you with some new possibilities. Ross Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Silverwolf Posted January 14, 2011 Report Share Posted January 14, 2011 oooooh that explains why i didnt get on with the whole cbt thing then cos my gut didnt believe it. hmmm I shall go away n ponder (no sherlock holmes smiley so nearest i could do) x Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apollo 13 Posted January 15, 2011 Report Share Posted January 15, 2011 This is a scientific journey goes to the very heart of what we hold most dear - our free will, and our ability to control our own destiny. ...................and yet we continue, with their set of rules, to vote in ineptitude to Govern us.............haven't we given up that right already?!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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