Believing Your Own Lies

[toaster]

Has anyone experienced this? I guess this would be hard to answer if you are a liar and believe what you are saying kinda like asking 'are you psychotic' - how the hell are you meant to know?!

My older foster sister, Joanne...she's insane. I mean proper nuts like. Scarily so. I don't have any contact with her now. There is a part of me that feels bad for her. She is totally trapped in her false reality. But the lies she tells are things that could be true. But it isn't stretching the truth. It is a LIE. She used to say to me, 'remember when you hit me over the head with the hoover?' um, no, Joanne. Say no to her, though and she calls you stupid, thick, DOZY - aarrgghh, I hated that name. DOZY. She gets angry and won't SHUT THE FUCK UP until you agree with her. She will tell you that she chose my sons name no she fucking didn't! She makes up wild stories about anything and everything. And I am convinced she believes it.

She is very hard to be around. I don't like her. I am afraid of her. She was violent. But says it was me violent towards her. She did suffer at the hands of one of our foster brothers - he was EXTREMELY violent towards all of us, including my foster mother. I can't feel bad for him though, whether he learnt his behaviour or not. He was and is a fucking cunt.

I know why I have lied in the past - and I say THE PAST because it is in the past. My truth is bizarre and painful enough for me without the need to lie. I know I couldn't focus on my feelings back then, the reason I hurt, so I created immediate dramas. I would lie about why I had self-harmed, overdosed etc. When I was younger and in the childrens homes, I would take 20 paracetamol and say I had taken 40. I would take 40 and say I had taken 60. I also know some people feel that their experiences don't validate their feelings so they elaborate or fabricate the truth.

The thing about people like our Joanne, though...I'm convinced she believes what she says. If I ever told a lie I was aware of the lie I was telling. I was also hell bent on proclaiming how utterly wrong lying was. I refused to accept that people can lie but it isn't always bad. I guess that was me trying to convince people that I wasn't a liar.

It has taken me a long time to see grey area. That someone can tell a lie but that does not make that person ALL bad. You can do a bad thing - if it really is bad - but that does not mean YOU are a bad person. But some people live on lies. Some people do lie because they are bad. Like abusers will lie to cover their tracks. But some people live on lies to protect themselves, to make themselves into something they want to be.

What are peoples thoughts on this? I have not made this post to be attacked. I merely want feedback, experiences and ideas surrounding this, please :)

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi toast

Depends what lies you mean. The ones your FS comes out with are pathological lies, that seem to revolve around control and her own avoidance of shame. But people can lie to themselves in much more subtle ways - denial, repression, supression etc, so it depends what type you mean.

I have been lying to myself for a long time about how ashamed, sad and lonely I felt, also how angry. Its not so much that I knew those emotions were there and tried to ignore them, its more like they were an unconscious splinter I kept trying to escape from without knowing. I realise its been driving most of my life.

Then there are sort of 'coping lies', like the ones someone unhappy in a relationship will tell themselves. Its fine, s/he'll change, it doesn't matter that much, I'm lucky to have someone like that etc.

It can feel annoying that WE have to be honest with ourselves, where others can happily go along deluding themselves and others though, especially when others are happy to take part in their delusion.

[Shadow girl]

It has taken me a long time to see grey area. That someone can tell a lie but that does not make that person ALL bad. You can do a bad thing - if it really is bad - but that does not mean YOU are a bad person. But some people live on lies. Some people do lie because they are bad. Like abusers will lie to cover their tracks. But some people live on lies to protect themselves, to make themselves into something they want to be.

I agree it is a grey area. I don't believe there is a single person on earth today who has never told a lie (unless they are too young to communicate). Like you say though there are lies and then there are "lies". I think compulsive lying is like an addiction for some people. I shared a house once with a girl who didn't seem to be able to stop herself. One time she got a bad cough and withinn a few weks had convinced everyone she was dying and waiting for a transplant operation. In the end she got taken in by a lovely family so they could care for her. It was then her husband got suspicious (he was a senior polic officer). He checked out a few facts then confronted her and she said sorry etc. and then started lying again about something else. It was very damaging and difficult for her and the people around her.

I don't have any answers though. I'll be interested to see other peoples thoughts on this.

[Data]

Is this perhaps to do with 'gaslighting'? If things are not talked about in a family, and lies are told by the people you trust, eventually it distorts your sense of reality.

[toaster]

im talking about outright lies.

ok, i dont want to be attacked for this...

i once lied i was pregnant. then said i had had a miscarriage. i said this in my first therapy group. i did genuinely believe i was pregnant at first, my period was late. i told the group this. then i came on. i felt like a fraud because i wasnt pregnant. i was seriously relieved i wasnt pregnant, but i panicked as well. i felt like i had to carry on the drama. it got me attention. it also deflected from my truth of why i was in a personality disorder group.

i knew i was lying. the thing is, someone like my foster sister would have carried on the lie. she would have said she was pregnant, continued the 'pregnancy'.

im not like this no more. i talk about why i have done these things.

i guess i am just like them.

[toaster]

data, the types of lies my foster sister says she does for her own benefit, not to distort anothers reality. the types of lies my foster mother would tell were to distort our reality and to protect herself. the type of lies i have told were for attention.

[CrippleAndStarfish]

I lie a lot. I wouldn't be able to admit this anywhere else, but it's true, I do. I'm terrified admitting this here, as i think people are going to point their fingers and begin to question whethere anything i've said previously or anything that i say afterwards is the truth or not....

There are certain people who i feel safe enough to be honest with, and i feel safe enough to be honest here. I can say "i feel shit" and talk about how the reason is cause i've been thinking about something that happened years ago, and it will be accepted - here, and with those few people IRL that i mentioned above - I can trust that I won't be told "but that was years ago, move on." or "you need to stop dragging everything up from the past, focus on the here and now instead".....

I get that from others, in particular my mum and my nana. It makes it really hard for me to feel like crap when i'm around them, because i'm so rubbish at hiding it as i cry a lot and i shake, so they notice something is up. It's easier for me to say to them "I've got a stomach ache/head ache/i'm tired/i've had a falling out with someone" than to say "well, i was thinking about what so-and-so said to me one day at such-a-place 2 years ago".

I've never believed my own lies as such, but I have done things in the past that, if i'd said to my mum i had a stomach ache, for example - I'd sneak laxitives so would be back and forth to the loo, so she'd see me going to the loo, and i would indeed have stomach cramps, so then although i'd lied initially, i'd make it so i wasn't actually lying anymore.

I lied a lot to my ex from a few years back - the abusive one who joined here. I used to tell him i was ill in bed because i didn't want to see him. I'd tell him that i had a really nice day out with my mum, when in fact i'd been hiding at my nana's and seeing a friend (Behind his back as he hated me seeing anyone that wasn't him or his friends).

I dunno what else to say. I hate the fact that i do it, but sometimes i just can't be honest with people IRL, because i'm terrified of them either being outright horrid to me, or of them just brushing off how i'm feeling as being nothing, when it does actually really hurt me....

I guess it's easier for me when i'm around people to be in emotional pain under the cover of physical pain or a recent drama of some sort, than to let it be known that i'm still bothered by something that happened ages ago.

Or sometimes, there's something going on that i don't want certain people to know about - but i still want them to be aware that i'm struggling - i guess i need the attention in some form, so i'll just say i'm hormonal or something - a lie - and leave it at that.

xxxxx

Edit - words in italics.

[Data]

I have told all sorts of outrageous lies for attention before, or because I thought it made me more accepted.

As I have grown older I've learned that its pointless and I've stopped doing it. I do cringe when I think back though.

[CrippleAndStarfish]

really scared now :unsure:

[toaster]

dont be scared crippie. i think the type of lies u r talking about r ok, in a sense. they arent lies to hurt others. they are lies to protect urself and maybe get urself the love and attention u need but are too afraid to say why.

data thank u for ur honesty as well

a few weeks ago, i was eating raw chicken and bacon. i wanted to self harm but couldnt, nor can i overdose. i was prepared to make self ill then make it look like food poisioning so i could have a break from life and hide away in the bedroom. i eventually told pie what i had been doing, after telling my social worker. i know that if i had gotten ill and pie was worried i would have felt horribly guilty. now i am aware and have more insight to my behaviours it is harder for me to carry on the behaviours. i tell my social worker EVERYTHING. its really refreshing to have this relationship with a professional where it is totally based on me being brutally honest, not just with her but also with myself. its fucking painful. my psychiatrist also knows. and the great thing is they dont judge me. my pdoc said it may take a long time to undo all the type of thinking i have - i have been acting out these behaviours for a long time. but i am on the right track.

crippie why r u scared?

[Narcissa]

I've always known my own lies. I'm not a habitual or compulsive liar. I only lie if I have something to gain, for instance - interviews for jobs or if I don't want to get into trouble. And I have been known to exaggerate my own success. But I know that i'm doing it. I've always known what I was doing. Whether that's better or worse than not knowing....I don't know.

Nobody is fundementally good or fundementally bad for lying. Everybody does it. For instance, if someone is a habitual or compulsive liar - regardless of the reason - well that's a disorder in itself.

[guntarded]

Given my recent situation and I have been hurt because of outright lies and exaggerations told of me.

My mother and sister lie and exaggerate things merely because they have nothing going on in their lives. They do the housework and shopping on certain days as routine, but as far as going out with friends...they have none. So they would make up things so that their conversations would be interesting, or lie bout me just so that they can all have a right bitch and have a conversation lasting longer than 10 minutes. If they had real stuff going on in their lives then they wouldn't have a need to fake drama in the first place.

[hummm_mabbe]

I guess it all comes down to shame really. If lying to make yourself look good, its because you dont feel good enough as you are. You dont believe people will value the truth of 'you', so you create a false one they will approve of.

With the other type, denying things or witholding information that might make someone angry, again its about avoiding that painful experience of rejection and feeling like a 'bad' person. Sometimes admitting you did something wrong feels like laying your neck on the tracks, because you dont anticipate forgiveness and understanding - you anticipate anger, rejection and possibly even control. With the last one, I mean the type of person that keeps a mental log of your 'transgressions' against them, and uses those as a means of controlling you, reminding you what a bad person you are. Or maybe just the fear that you will say sorry, an the other person will take that as an invitation to attack.

Lying avoids all those painful situations, for a time. Once people find out about the lie, or when they basically know the person has been lying but feels unable to make them admit it, thats when an even greater anger can come up. But of course that triggers another round of shame, and another round of either denial or counter-blame. Its a constant buck-passing of shame because no one wants to feel it - its too painful. It just ends up being lumped on the one who has the least capacity to fling it back at the others involved. Some families can become very good at creating these sort of "shame continuums" where its just passed arounf from one to the other.

[lewchocolate]

I don't mean to say this in a nasty way so please don't take it like that. About ten years ago I lost someone and I came online because it was the only place that I could find people to talk to about it. One day someone said I was lying about it all and it really hurt me, even to this day it makes me angry. Your foster sister, I have no doubt lies, still to call her out would kind of hurt. I guess I saying it is a really difficult line to walk because you can't agree with everything and anything she says when you know they are lies but then again from what you are saying she can't really help it. Her false reality is actually to her reality and to say she is lying would hurt her which I don't think you intend to do that, you never seem to want to do that in your posts. I would say that you should maybe agree with her lies if they make no difference to you just to be kind but never do it because you are scared she is going to be violent towards you. I never find violence acceptable!

The lies that we all say from time to time is completely different to a 'psychotic lie', the intent is different. That is an important difference, we have reasons behind why we are lying which does not make us good or bad people, it just makes us human. If you say something believing it to be true to later find out it is false then sometimes you just don't really want explain it all so you leave it at that - to me that is fine. To lie to get attention that is completely human, maybe you actually needed that attention and weren't getting it. Hope that makes some kind of sense. Take care,

Lewis

[CrippleAndStarfish]

...Guess am scared because feel like will be attacked for lying. Is what has happened before, particularly with mum. But then, she just doesn't understand at all. Or she does, maybe, but won't admit it, cause she lies too.

[toaster]

i was once totally psychotic on here. i said a member had died. i truly believed it. i could see all over the forum goodbye posts to this member, ppl saying prayers for her etc. i went into chat and told ppl she had died. pie knew i was unwell and called the police on me. the police turned up and asked me if i was psychotic (wtf). obviously i said no - i didnt think i was! thats a different lie. a lie i was unaware of. when i became aware, i was horrified. some members didnt understand and believed i had consciously lied. not true.

my foster sister...is incredibly hard to be around. i havent had any contact with her for a couple of years now. i know she cant help the way she is. she was once sectioned and the psychiatrist said she was the most manipulative person they had ever met - they said that to us, not to her. she is dangerous, more so because she doesnt know she is. she is unable to address her problems and until she can she will be dangerous.

crippie, this post was not intended for people to be attacked. its brave and commendable of you to tell the truth about such a scary and controversial subject. who wants to admit they lie? not a lot of people! i find coming here, i can talk about this shit. i wouldnt go into college and say all this. this is the place i can come to and get support, and it should be the same for u

[Dice]

* Gone * ...

[Dice]

* Gone * ...

[toaster]

Dice ur fine

the type of lies i have told r wrong an its ok to say that

will come bak to htis later

****cubey))))

[Dice]

Sorry...

I'll edited my post's and take them off... I feel bad, Sorry...

[toaster]

no worries cubey...i wish u could have kept them there but is ur choice

i hate being lied to. i feel extremely targetted when it has happened. i think we have to remember that, for the most part, people arent actually doing it to hurt us - they are doing it for whatever gain they can get.

[AndyL]

In my opinion, if you're going to tell a lie, the best kind of lie to tell is the lie you don't have to remember later. I've learned that the hard way, which is why I generally don't lie—since I can never remember half the things I say or do (although I have been known to exaggerate). I think so-called white lies are actually important, though. Those are the lies you tell so people aren't hurt, like the lie I should have told my son when, at 10 years old, he asked me, did you have sex with that woman? when he found out my marriage was breaking up. That's the only lie I regret not having told. It's been five years and I still don't think he's over it. Jesus christ, I know I'm not.

[toaster]

we make mistakes andy. i know there isnt really much else i can say to you in regards to this because i would probably just piss you off. ((((andy))))

i was always quite good at keeping up with my lies. i had to keep up with stuff as a kid because of both the abuse and also because i was accused of doing stuff i hadnt done.

i once told a friend i had broken my leg because i didnt wanna go see her. not because i didnt like her just was me being typical bpd! i had to keep that lie up for 8 weeks!

[Christine001]

Trigger- re suicide and ods

"I can trust that I won't be told "but that was years ago, move on." or "you need to stop dragging everything up from the past, focus on the here and now instead"..... "

Quote from Cripee's post earlier, god that rings true so I have lied to my family and some friends for years as this is what they always said, so I say I am fine or just dont talk about how I am feeling.

Ashamed to say I have lied to MH professionals. You know "Do you have any plans for suicide" well yes but I aint telling you. and do you need a repeat prescription, yes ( though also had some from other doc, so now had a stash that I used to OD.

Anyhow they are now wise to this and gaining back their trust may take some time. but at the time it was about needing to go.

I did say I dont understand why anyone who is planning suicide would say yes as doesnt that defeat the object?

Christine.

[AndyL]

Toast, there's really nothing anyone can say on this forum that'll piss me off, trust me. I've been around it too long and understand where everyone is coming from too well to ever be truly offended by anything anyone here says, so don't be afraid to say what's on your mind to me. I certainly don't pull my punches where I judge it appropriate!

As for mistakes, well to paraphrase Mark Twain (or possibly Disraeli) there are mistakes, damned mistakes, and mistakes-that-fuck-up-your-kids-for-life. One little white lie would have avoided that third category for my little boy, who is now almost 15 and just pissed off all the time.

Once in high school I said I'd been hurt for attention. Kids do stuff. My step-kids and the aforementioned angry son lie like criminals about homework. And the wonder of it all is that they think we don't know they're lying.