Dis-Regard For The Health And Safety Of Others

[successful_workthru]

I have just been to a session with a psychologist and I finally admitted that I do not care about others health and safety.

This is serious and is reflected in my past in-actions.

the flat below me had a gas leak, and I was too lazy to report it because I was in bed and didnt want the hassle.

I have damaged asbestos in my house and was instructed months ago to clean my house from top to bottom to reduce the risk of spreading it to visitors and from my clothes when I come into contact with others. As the flat is full of clutter I could not be bothered.

I put things off that I really cannot afford to put off - safety issues.

I am really freaked out that I do not care about others health and safety.

I told my psychologist that I would rather lay in bed, or chill out with friends outside than do what I have been instructed to do regarding others health and safety.

On the one hand, I am cold hearted and cannot be bothered with the hassle, but on the other hand I find it very disturbing that I don't care enough about putting others safety at risk.

I'm writing this because I wanted to share it, but I don't know why I wanted to share it, I jsut cannot sit comfortably with it alone.

I think this is the reason why I don't drive, and also the reason that I never became a mother, because at the time I could not admit to myself that I do not care about others health and safety.

[CaTsEyEs]

I thought I was too selfish to have kids but when it was tested I am ok actually. I know what you mean though, I dunno do you not care or can't be bothered? For me it is probably a mixture.

[Data]

I went on a class about anxiety management. They said that the reason why a lot of people put things off is because of anxiety. People don't open their post because of anxiety, etc. Maybe this is a factor with you? Its like the whole process of cleaning is something that you see as being so anxiety-provoking you don't even know where to start.

Just a thought.

[stjaninaro]

Think I know where you're coming from. I've been called heartless and cold etc too.

Self-defence thing for me. They don't care about my health, so why should I care about their wellbeing?

[successful_workthru]

I thought I was too selfish to have kids but when it was tested I am ok actually. I know what you mean though, I dunno do you not care or can't be bothered? For me it is probably a mixture.

As much as it hurts me to admit it, I gotta be truthful and say both, I don't care and cannot be bothered.

I did a little bit of cleaning tonight, but I could have done a whole lot more today if I had got out of bed before 1 0'cock.

I went on a class about anxiety management. They said that the reason why a lot of people put things off is because of anxiety. People don't open their post because of anxiety, etc. Maybe this is a factor with you? Its like the whole process of cleaning is something that you see as being so anxiety-provoking you don't even know where to start.

Just a thought.

Data, I don't know where to start, but it's only because I have put it off for so long.

Think I know where you're coming from. I've been called heartless and cold etc too.

Self-defence thing for me. They don't care about my health, so why should I care about their wellbeing?

stjaninaro

Yeah. I know why I can't be arsed, cos of laziness, but I am at a loss to know why I don't care. I'm sure no one would want to put my health at risk with asbestos knowing its so dangerous.

I was cleaining things with wet loo roll and putting the loo roll down the bog, and I got told that I was contaminating the public drains. I daren't even look into that one in case I am in serious trouble, although another asbestos company told me not to worry about drains.

[hummm_mabbe]

Whenever I come across a "why do i do that?" type question in myself, I like to make lists of possibles and then look for emotional evidence to back up the theories. Heres some ideas:

1) You feel controlled and powerless most of the time. Being 'instructed' (your words) to clear up something makes you feel controlled or pressured. You resist the discomfort and instead you rebel. It feels more comfy to sit and do nothing, plus you have the pleasure of not being controlled.

2) As data said, maybe its a case of feeling overwhelmed by those tasks and you dont know how to do them.

3) Maybe you fear you will do them wrong, or maybe there is some social anxiety aspect of it - you may be afraid of dealing with whatever people you need to deal with.

4) You really are a bad person who wants to hurt other people and slowly kill them with asbestos.

5) You have a very low frustration tolerance, and anything that feels difficult fills you with discomfort. Maybe there is an element of perfectionism.

6) Maybe the person telling you how unsafe it is reminds you of some over-worried parent who was always nagging you about pointless things that werent that big a deal, and it makes you feel angry and frustrated to hear someone banging on about heatlh and safety.

It certainly seems that the idea of DOING the thing makes you uncomfy, and instead you want to do something pleasurable. So I would say figure out what it is about the doing that makes you uncomfortable. Dont just resort to "I am a bad, selfish horrible person", thats too easy and describes nothing - it just reflects depression's view of you.

[successful_workthru]

Hi HM

Thank you for the ideas.

After a bit of thinking, it's not that I want to kill people with asbestos, it's more like - it's too much of a hassle to do things so that they are not a health risk.

You're supposed to hire a H type vaccuum cleaner, as household vacs just spread it around, but that's too much hassle getting it up the stairs to my flat, plus I havent got transport.

I've spoken to the council on numerous occasions and also many, many asbestos companies, but I have always asked the wrong questions, and now everybody is sick of my calls, the council even stopped me phoning.

I'd rather take a guess than alienate the people who I have phoned repeatedly everytime a question comes up.

I do have a low frustration tolerance and I hate doing housework, let along spring cleans.

I believe the people who tell me it is a risk, because they know their stuff.

I honestly don't know why I dont care, I just put myself first all of the time. I help people only when it suits me, and no matter how serious a danger, I dont seem to care about the risk.

This is really hard for me to admit, because, frankly, I find it disturbing.

It's like I am cold and uncaring, but I don't want to be, because cold uncaring people are not well liked and must lead a lonely life.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi SW

The main thing with low frustration tolerance is that it is very similar to overcoming anything that involves discomfort, such as facing anxiety or depression: Distress tolerance is a huge part of it. I can well relate to not doing the cleaning, shopping etc, because thinking about doing it brought up such uncomfortable feelings. You literally end up having to face pain to do even the simplest of tasks, and its something that has blighted every job I have had (except the most recent one).

Maybe one way of trying to treat yourself a bit better is to recognise that pain that doing stuff brings up. Yeah sure, people out there will call it laziness - its a neat label that describes someone who does not do the things that are there to be done. But its a value judgement - "I am lazy, I am useless" or worse, "I am a selfish, spoiled little brat who thinks the world owes him / her a living". All that does is depress you more without really facing the underlying feelings that directly prevent you taking action, so I would say put aside the value judgements, try not to tell yourself you should be doing this or that, and instead look directly at the pain aspect of it. This is something I did, and I spread it out over time - I started with stuff like the washing up. I thought about getting up to do it, noticed the heavy, sluggish feeling that came over me. I went to the kitchen, and noticed my head got foggy. I started to feel angry. Then I made myself do the washing up, letting myself feel cross and paying attention to the discomfort. I tried doing that with lots and lots of things, and made distress tolerance something of a by-word - but always I was trying to do it from a view of "OK this hurts, that sucks. Why does it hurt?" rather than "Ive got to get over this and make myself do it". The whole co-ercion thing was a massive part of it, because it just adds more discomfort. As the difficulty is that desire to avoid pain, there;s no point telling yourself you should be doing it.

It may feel that distress tolerance is basically saying "well, life is hard - grin and bear it and dont be so lazy". Its very hard to shake those old messages and viewpoints, and for even apparently helpful approaches and methods to be co-opted by the part of the mind that wants to make you feel like a shit.

[successful_workthru]

Hi hummm_mabbe

If there wasn't asbestos involved and it was just a case of me procrastinating cleaning and other jobs, I would not be beating myself up so much.

The cleaning does feel overwhelming, and if I thought I was doing the best that I could I would not feel so bad, but the thing is, I don't feel like I am doing the best I can.

I avoided it again today, and cannot pin down the reason why I am avoiding it, when it involves mimizing serious health risk to others and once again, I feel really freaked out.

When I have been cleaning the last few days, I have been worried because I don't really know what to do with the cloths I am using to wipe dust off surfaces. I am using wet toilet roll to clean the dust, and throwing it down the loo. I was told by one asbestos company that I am contaminating public drains by doing this, but another company said not to worry about the drains. If I didnt throw them down the loo, I would have to store wet toilet roll in my flat in a bag, which could get mouldy, until I could afford to get someone to take the toilet roll away as contaminated waste.

I cannot ring the council because I have already made a nuiscance of my self, and I daren't ring the environment agency to tell them what I have done as I may get into serious trouble.

So, there is some anxiety associated with the cleaning, I feel overwhelmed by it, but I cannot convince myself it is an excuse to put the jobs off, as I am putting others at serious health risk.

I am sorry that you feel pain when thinking of doing jobs like cleaning and shopping etc.

You're right, calling myself lazy and other names isn't going to help.

I am just really disturbed that I would rather put being in bed before the health and safety of others.

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

The difficulty is that desire to avoid pain, under normal circumstances without the asbestos there is no point telling myself I should be doing it, yet I feel a sense of urgency to do it, because then I will know that I am doing my best to minimize risk and would have a clear conscience, but as it is, I am staying in bed, knowing I am not doing my best to minimize risk and this is what freaks me out.

If there was no asbestos, and no risk, I most probably wouldn't feel so shit about not doing these jobs.

I hope I am not being a burden, I am no longer calling myself lazy names, but I do feel freaked out about not doing my best to minimize serious risks to others.

[successful_workthru]

Hi

Thanks for all your replies so far, - please also see my post above.

I know I am not involved in the law but the fact that dis-regard for the health and safety of others is considered a serious offence in law and offenders are heavily fined means that I think I am doing a really bad thing.

I got out of bed late again today. I could have had the hoovering done, but I find it so difficult to get out of bed.

I think the reason I am putting off doing the jobs is because when I do them it raises more questions which I cannot get answered.

The asbestos companies say to clean as far as reasonably practicable.

I don't know if I can dispose of the cloths as normal waste, or contaminated waste.

To dispose of them as contaminated waste, I would need a car to get to the asbestos tip people. I cannnot think of anyone who would take me as I would have to make an appointment with the asbestos tip people.

I don't know how to go about washing the walls and ceilings. I would need loads and loads of cloths and I don't feel I can dip into my savings as they are my safety net for later if I lose my benefits due to the new benefits system.

I cannot go to the council again, because they are already fed up of me as I have had so many questions.

The CAB would just refer me to the council.

It's just all getting on top of me and grinding me down.

love sw x

[successful_workthru]

Thanks for all of your help, but can anyone help me with the 2 posts above please?

love sw x

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi SW

Sorry I have no idea how to deal with the asbestos beyond hiring a private company.

[successful_workthru]

Hi SW

Sorry I have no idea how to deal with the asbestos beyond hiring a private company.

Hi hummm_mabbe

I'm more worried about my disregard for others health and safety. I keep putting off the hoovering by staying in bed. I don't know why I am doing this and it really worries me cos I think I am a danger to others.

Sorry to be such a pain

love sw x

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi SW

You are no therapy newbie and you give good advice to folks, so I would say - what would you advise someone else?

I personally think the only way to do this is literally make yourself go and plug the hoover in, and start doing it - then watch all the thoughts and feelings that come up for you. Try to make this about learning something emotionally about yourself, rather than it being about asbestos, other people or hoovering. Turn the experience into a laboratory, rather than an operating theatre or a battleground. Your body is a testtube. Your mind a microscope

Its going to feel horrible, for sure - but that horrible just might give you a really useful insight, and insights are like lovely nommie choccie drops. Well I think they are. Omm nommm nommmm

[successful_workthru]

Hi hummm_mabbe

I personally think the only way to do this is literally make yourself go and plug the hoover in, and start doing it - then watch all the thoughts and feelings that come up for you.

If I were to put myeslf in a lab, I would see someone who is often in situations where I dont know what to do. This is because, as a child of authoritarian parents I was never allowed to think for myself.

I have also discovered that I would rather put my own comfy feelings above others no matter what risk.

My conclusion is that I simply don't care enough for others.

I never found out how to love or care, the concept just feels totally alien to me.

Something must have happened in my mind to make me feel this way, because every human is born with love in their hearts. Caring for one another is a natural state, and this is only corrupted by negative experiences in life.

As for the negative experiences, I have had long term repeated chronic emotional abuse, but after digging and digging, I cannot find one particular experience that has warped my mind this way.

When I did do the cleaning, more questions came up.

I don;t know the answers to these questions, and the not knowing is making me shy away from doing the cleaning.

I agree that insights are like chocolate drops, thanks for the lovely picture.

The main insight I have is that somehow I value being in bed above everything else in life. No matter what trouble it causes me, I stay in bed and fail to do things.

So long as I am not too wired, I can stay in bed and relax, but once the sleepiness goes, I have to get out of bed, and this is when I am vulnerable.

[CaTsEyEs]

Does the fact that you are aware of this make a difference do you think? I do.

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi SW

In that case, I would say keep coming back to it. When I talk about insights, I am not talking about the psychoanalytic or cognitive behavioural type. I dont mean an intellectual "this happened when I was little and now I cant do it" type thing, or "this is all or nothing thinking". I dont mean a neat, word-based explanation of why you do it.

I mean the direct, felt insights. "As I do this, I am feeling this. I am feeling it here in my body, and its sharp / dull. As I carry on doing it, it changes to this feeling here which is (x)". Keep going until you feel really angry, pissed off, tired, whatever it is. Make yourself feel as uncomfortable as you possibly can, and just experience the discomfort, without trying to escape it, or be rid of it. If you feel annoyed about that, feel annoyed. If you want to say "this is all bollocks, fuck it" then do that. But do the task, keep coming back to it. Stop thinking, stop solving, and 'do'. I think the only way you are going to get through this is to stop hoping that you will suddenly WANT to do it, or feel good about doing it.

You probably wont feel good - but you may discover that you can stand the discomfort long enough to get it done. Yes - it feels good to lie in bed, it feels shit to do chores. That is what it comes down to - choose to endure pain, or take the easy comfiness of bed. Maybe you have a far higher sensitivity to pain than other people, including emotional pain (which includes boredom and frustration). Its not about being selfish - its about the simple fact these things suck to do. I would rather drink a coke with ice than have my legs waxed. I would rather lay on beach than have someone poke me in the ribs. Most humans will choose pleasure over pain - but not everyone has learned how to handle pain. I dont know if you use mindfulness, but it is an awesome approach to dealing with discomfort - as long as you arent using it to make the pain go away. What it does is change the relationship to it - stops you adding layers of discomfort that do not need to be there. Being fully with pain stops you making stories and struggle out of pain, stops you making those new layers of suffering over and above the core one.

You mentioned authoritarian parents, and from what you are saying it sounds very much like you are experiencing issues around self-discipline and distress tolerance. That can often happen with people who grow up in these environments - and the only way out is to learn self-discipline and distress tolerance. In short, learning to face short term pain. Yes, others may call you selfish out of frustration, but that doesnt help you learn you can endure discomfort long enough to accomplish what needs to be done. I dont think you are going to solve this without feeling considerable discomfort, and I think that may be precisely the thing thats stopping you. Telling yourself how selfish you are, figuring out the origins in your childhood - none of that is going to make it any better.

Often when you face pain and discomfort, you become 'inured' to it, like immunity. It doesnt suddenly become nice, but it does become less unpleasant. Then later down the line you have a new pleasure - the sense of having got stuff done.

Those answers you are looking for are also probably in there, but as weird as it sounds they probably wont come by thinking. The answers tend to bubble up from direct, felt experience. Words almost get in the way. Listen to your body rather than your mind. It sounds gimmicky and new age, but there's a lot of answers to be found this way.

[successful_workthru]

Hi hummm_mabbe'

I see what you mean.

I'll do some more observing of my feelings and will get back to you with my insights.

Thanks also CaTsEyEs

love SW x

[successful_workthru]

Hi

I get uncomfortable feelings all over my body when I think of continuing the hoovering and cleaning. This gives rise to panic, which makes me want to phone the council, but I cannot as I have become a nuiscance.

I daren't sit with the feelings too long because I am prone to injuring myself suddenly out of frustration.

I feel that if I just go ahead I will constantly worry for ages after that I have done the wrong thing and cause others a risk which I dont want on my conscience.

It's not just about getting chores done, I am getting better with other chores, its about causing further problems when I come to dispose of the waste.

I don't think your answer sounds gimmicky and new age. In face I am going to keep the post on my hard drive for when I have other uncomfy situations which do not relate to putting others at risk.

lots of love

SW x

[hummm_mabbe]

Hi

I get uncomfortable feelings all over my body when I think of continuing the hoovering and cleaning. This gives rise to panic, which makes me want to phone the council, but I cannot as I have become a nuiscance.

I daren't sit with the feelings too long because I am prone to injuring myself suddenly out of frustration.

I feel that if I just go ahead I will constantly worry for ages after that I have done the wrong thing and cause others a risk which I dont want on my conscience.

It's not just about getting chores done, I am getting better with other chores, its about causing further problems when I come to dispose of the waste.

I don't think your answer sounds gimmicky and new age. In face I am going to keep the post on my hard drive for when I have other uncomfy situations which do not relate to putting others at risk.

lots of love

SW x

Hi there

I think its really good that you faced the discomfort for that length of time and got some information out of it, particularly the one about being worried about getting into further trouble. It may not have direcrly solved the problems or changed the feelings, but at least you have more certianty over what it is that is making it so difficult. From my perspective it makes much more sense that the task is uncomfortable AND you are worried about others becoming angry or upset with you, than it just being that you somehow were selfish or didnt care. Whilst some slightly unpleasant or judgemental people might have called you selfish or lazy in the past, its now something different: You struggled with this task because of the discomfort it made / makes you feel, and the fear of what others will do. Those are both very powerful reasons to want to procrastinate. Whats also good is that, even though you feel you may injure yourself, for the length of time you faced the feelings, this time at least, you did not injure yourself. That may be something you can slowly extend as your ability with distress tolerance grows. Its not the most pleasant achievement to work for, but a very useful one that takes a lot of courage, so its good you did what you did

It seems you are caught between a rock and a hard place really - if you call the council, they get angry. If you hoover it up wrong, someone will get angry. Its the kind of 'double bind' that always leads to feeling utterly stuck, so I dont blame you at all for feeling so stymied over this.

[successful_workthru]

Hi hummm_mabbe

You have been wonderful in your thoughtful replies to me.

It's not that I am bothered about making people angry, I am more bothered aboutthem banning me from speaking to them, should I need them in the future.

Also, if the people in my past think I am selfish or lazy that's thier issue, not mine.

It's more a conscience thing.

At the moment, however, I just feel like saying "To hell with it, get on and do the cleaning and don't worry about disposal, just chuck things in the bin" This is because it will be highly expensive and inconvenient to dispose of it as contaminated waste.

You need a car and have to make an appointment with the asbestos waste service, and this just sounds like too much of a hassle.

Before I knew I had asbestos, I chucked quite a lot in the bin and the council know this.

I got scared when a private company said I could contaminate public drains, yet another private company told me not to worry.

I'm now trying to convince myself that the amount of asbestos I may have remaining in my flat (apart from the kitchen flooring which is getting removed by the insurance) is not enough to cause a problem

All asbestos companies, the council and the HSE reckon the type of asbestos I have is low risk because it is white, but what bothers me is that there are some people which say that there is overwhelming scientific evidence that shows white is as harmful as the more dangerous types (blue or brown) plus, experts say there is a lot of uncertainty concerning white asbestos.

The one consolation is that the Chief Scientific Advisor to the government says that evidence suggests it is not as harmful.

I can get on an do the cleaning and dispose of the waste in the bin, down the loo, but my worry is that afterwards I will be very anxious about this for a long time.

I did not give the uncomfortable feelings long enough to injure myself, because when I injure myself I am begining to think that the self-injuries are a risk to my physical health.

lots of love

sw x

[Fuck-My-Life]

Hi SW,

I can relate to this as well, so I know where you are coming from to a degree. When I was in Halls, we had contractors in what seemed ALL of the time. I would come back from a lecture to see yet another info letter on the door saying a contractor will be in the do the showers/fix this/fix that and will need access to the bedrooms e.g. mine. I used to get so mad, and often got into verbal fights with the contractors who tried to come in. "We need to have access to your room to look at the shower incase of such and such in the water".. "I need to come in to test the fire alarm"... often greeted with my sarcastic replies telling them where to go, and often getting to the stage where accommodation would get involved and give me warnings.

Its good you are able to be honest and look at the issue like I did. For me, it was an issue of men coming in my room which I hated, also I too couldnt be bothered. Yeah, why should I have to stop revising at my desk for you to come in and fiddle about in my shower etc... I also hated being told what to do. Flatmates often warned me that I would be putting others lives in danger e.g. if my fire alarm was bust and then someone after I had moved out stayed there, and there was a fire, they wouldnt hear the alarm and could die. It wasnt that I didnt care, I just couldnt be bothered

Personally though for the asbestos thing; PLEASE be careful. Seen first hand evidence of people who have been affected by asbestos and its not nice, and I am worried for your health! I dont know you personally, but I wouldnt like any harm to come to you. You mention the clutter in your flat; could you maybe get someone you know and trust to help you declutter it?

The fact you are addressing this issue shows you are far from heartless, and do care. If you didnt, you wouldnt have shared if with your psychologist or us And its good you have. Also, if I remember, you have always helped me out on my posts, so I think you are very caring and show compassion for others.

Sorry if I have gone on, just wanted to let you know that I know where you are coming from to a degree and I personally think you are caring and kind.

Hope this gets sorted

FML x

[successful_workthru]

Thanks FML

Yeah, avoidiong risks to others health and safety can be an inconvenience.

Like the time when the flat below me had a gas leak during the night, and I waited for hours before phoning the gas engineers to come out and have a look.

It was like my bed was more important to me than treating the situation urgently.

love sw x

[Fuck-My-Life]

But you have addressed that; many people wouldnt.

We all behave selfishly to a degree, so dont worry. I remember one time this girl outside my flat came back drunk and split her head open on the paving stones. She was screaming, and I refused to get up and was like "shut the fuck up", as I had to be up at 5am that same day. In the end, I did get up, but the ambulance was already there.

Believe me, I have been twice as worse than that, so like I said, dont worry, and its good you are seeking help xx