Bpd And The 'alien Self' Please Try To Read This

[walker]

ok lily tried to post this as we failed but we are trying again as it is so vital that people know this but we are not very well tonight with our head so please don't trash this please

One of our team spoke to us about the ALIEN SELF

it is when early attachment with the ‘caregiver’ has not been ‘healthy’ and instead of them mirroring back an accurate reflection of the child’s internal state - thoughts, feeling, emotions - they have not just misinterpreted things but have projected their own thoughts, fears, feelings, emotions, their own internal state onto the child – OR perhaps there has been trauma or loss present (sorry not very good at describing how that all works)

Anyway the result is what has been termed the ‘alien self’ as although it has been internalised within the child’s mind, it is infact NOT accurately them, and it doesn’t sit comfortably inside their mind, their being, it is alien to them

This is so startling to us as for these past years we have felt and talked about ‘getting them out of our head’, have felt like everything we do belongs to someone else, that we don’t know who we are because we are several and the ‘one’ seems to be lost or gone or something

Anyway we found a presentation on the web about mentalization therapy (which is teaching the mirroring back that we did not receive as children, or which was faulty) and we wanted to share just a bit we found about the ALIEN SELF

(Please bear in mind this has nothing whatsoever to do with ‘alien abductions’ or the like!!, they are not talking about something physically being put inside us!!)

This presentation is written by PETER FONAGY and ANTHONY BATEMAN (hoping they don’t sue us for putting this in here)

this shows how HEALTHY mirroring works

Here things have not worked so well and the child is not receiving a reflection back of their internal state – instead they are receiving nothing, or irrelevant, or faulty information that they are still internalising because that is the only way they have of surviving - they can’t ‘opt out’ at this early stage of attachment

This is where we feel wrong inside, where we hate what is inside us, where we feel bad and wrong, and need to hurt the badness inside

They go on to say how if you were being tormented daily from ‘outside’ then if you were brave enough you would attack, fight back, but when this thing that you hate is INSIDE you there is no escaping it.

So you can self-harm, you can get angry with them, show them who is in charge, show them how much you can hurt them. BUT unfortunately they are in the same body as you so you end up attacking yourself but it feels like you have no choice, until you reach the point that the only way to get rid of this ‘thing’ is to get rid of yourself! (summary of the words of a patient of Bateman)

Gosh this seems to show so well how logical things are for us and how they can so easily escalate.

It can also mean that we project our pain out onto others, blame them, see them as hurting us when it is our own pain

this is shown in the picture on the right (the left is the same as the one above)

we find this hard to put into words so hope you can make some sense of it, as I am unsure if they are saying the other person (pale blue blob!) is actually abusive and we need that to protect us from our own internal pain, - OR – if we are just needing to perceive that the pain is coming from them, instead of inside us – hmmmmmm (this has very big implications for our own situation as some of you will know)

ok we are pretty sure that it is showing the addictive need to feel pain from ‘outside’, from others, so that we can reduce the experience of the pain inside us

which would perhaps explain why for us (people like us) it is so hard to let go of negative relationships and the need to hurt as then we are left to face what is inside us

[artemis84]

This is really interesting walker. Thank you for taking the time to post it again for us. (It makes much more sense with the pictures!)

Like you, my head is pretty full tonight but will definitely come back to this when I am feeling better.

[Lily-Bee]

Yayyy you did it!

[Kara.]

Thank you walker. This is very interesting. will copy it for myself. Hugs

[Eagleheart]

Thank you so much for sharing this Walker. It is very complex & also,profound. My brain needs time to get to the core of the message because I have a feeling it's a very important message. For now,my brain has gone to sleep so I will read it all again when I am fully awake. X

[Vez]

This is scary as it makes so much sense. Im abit stunned and lost for words!!! Thats a first. Thank you for sharing :-)

[walker]

when we found it

when we saw it there on the screen

it shook us up inside

as it is our truth

or part of it certainly

and we feel the same, like we can see it is vital but we cant quite get hold of it yet

it was incredibly hard to explain as we are so on the edge of understanding it

here is a link to the whole presentation being presented

by Professor Peter Fonagy himself

he is not a great speak but his compassion and understand shine through

'>

if you just watch from 23 mins, as the first bit is not so good

36 - 37.3 mins is KEY

54.3mins is about how unhelpful it is to ask already distressed bpd why they are distressed

[Kara.]

wow walker. thank you so much. I will not see it today but tomorrow for sure. looking forward to it.

it's so hard to come to these conclusions but it helps one to at least rationalise this self hatred as not a defect of self but as an imposition from something outside of ourselves. That allien can become more human like walker.

Hugs and thank you.

[walker]

indeed

it helps us as it helps to reinforce that it was not OUR FAULT that we are like this

even though we still feel it is inside

it is good to know that there are such people as this, PROVING to the world that we (bpd people) are not just bad attention seekers

one thing we have found hard is the feeling that our former psychologist knows this stuff, and never spoke about it

its like we were being watched from the inside out and

well we are not saying it well

but it confuses us that there was this big secret that they kept hidden

[Kara.]

I don't know whether these 'secrets' are kept as a way to deprive us. Many therapists don't know and can't work with these states. They may fear that the person gets into a very scary place if s/he was to experience these states. Some people have visited these places and came back to integrate the experience but some others may get too overwhelmed with the states of that part of themselves. Some people may have more resources to do this others don't and this goes to both therapist and patient.

My previous T also couldn't do this work. He seemed to think that I would need to start all over again, be reparented from scratch, to overcome my developmental deficiencies. My present T is trying though I don;t think that he fully understands what it means to have that allien self.

[walker]

not sure we explained very well

what we meant was that he knew about the alien self and about what it is and why/how it exists

yet he never bothered or chose not to tell us about it

we know he knew as he works in mbt

we just feel stupid that

well maybe he decided we weren't in a place to learn about it

and now we want to

he's not bloody well there, is he

[Kara.]

Sorry I misunderstood you walker. Maybe. Maybe he thought that you were not in the right place to know about it.... Lily was just saying today that the greater part of her recovery was due to her own reading and research. That is amazing. I am very dependent on my T at the moment but I also research a lot. Like you are doing. It's great because we can share stuff.

Do you know how your alien self, if you have one, looks like? Have you spoken to him/her? Did s/he reply?

[walker]

this is hard

what people 'on the outside' see as 'walker'

we think is most often the alien self

but it seems to be different parts

it is 'other people'

it is what they want

it is their version of 'right' of 'ok' of 'expected'

it is their thoughts and feelings

but this is why we need to work with someone who understands this stuff

we know

when we were growing up

if we wanted a biscuit we were told we didn't need it or want it

that we weren't REALLY hungry

if we said things

we were told

'you don't really think that, it is what X wants, or what X says or thinks

we never understood how we could have any thoughts without the imput of others (from people/tv/books/teachers/friends etc)

yet it was like everything was always being taken away from us

nothing was 'ours'

and the things that seemed spontaneous

the chatter, laughter, excitement, tears, loves, hates, anger, jealousy, whatever

it always seemed to be wrong

we weren't allowed to be like that, feel like that, think like that

that wasn't 'good' and that wasn't apparently how we 'REALLY' felt

we know there must be a true 'walker' inside us

and we know bits and pieces of us come out

but we don't know who walker is

we do know a lot of things she is not allowed to be

why oh why oh why oh why wont they help us with this

[Kara.]

I don't know if you want to go into this too much, but reading your post I wondered if you're talking about Winnicott's false self instead of Fonagy's alien self. I read about both in here just now as i am more familiar with Winicott's false self: https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=Obi4AQAAQBAJ&pg=PA69&lpg=PA69&dq=false+self+alien+self&source=bl&ots=G9N4BI0vdU&sig=0asT0ndfnoSIFLYlVYfLJxRVyeQ&hl=en&sa=X&ei=bvXoVI6zBMnyUPmXgNAD&ved=0CDAQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=false%20self%20alien%20self&f=false

The false self is a construction of a self that is meant to hide the true self. So there is the notion that there is a true self. The alien self, as I understood in what I read just now, is a idea of self that has replaced the true self. So the alien self is not hiding or covering the true self, it has replaced it.

i may be wrong but this is how I understood it. Sorry walker I tend to be quite curious about these technical things about therapy.

But it would be worth to be supported in finding out as well as creating the walker that you want to be.

[walker]

we probably have it all wrong then

sorry

but there will always be a true self inside everyone

even if it is never known and never seen

you will be right we will b e wrong that is how it is how it always is how it always was and how it always will be

we find something that is ours the belongs to us and then it is taken away from us again

this is not your fault but that is now how it is

[Kara.]

No I don't think that you have it wrong. It makes sense. i was trying to help you think about what may be your truth. I'm not quite sure what's mine. Do you think that we all have a true self inside? I usually feel that I don't have anything inside, just a hole. Or shame. I wish I had a true self that was lovely...

Your mum seems to have completely invalidated you but I hope that you find the seed of the real you and that that seed can grow grow grow. All that spontaneity that you were not allowed... that was the real you walker.

Hugs.

[walker]

we are hollowed out and spend our life trying to fill the emptiness with food

its not your fault but when someone presents something that seems valid it knocks whatever else we believe out of place and is now not true even though it was totally true just an few minutes ago

we have been blasted apart yet again

we found a hand hold and it has fallen through our fingers

now we cant hold on ton things in our head they keep falling out

and our own children's lives will ultimately be fkd up by us

as we were totally unable to mirror them or parent them or whatever it all is - effectively

all we gave them was the shit that is in our head

ALL THE GREAT BIG PILE OF SHIT THAT IS US

[Kara.]

I'm sorry walker. I get what you are saying. I didn't mean to 'steal' your believes. Can you see it as an option rather than one knocking the other off? I don't mean to knock you off. Not at all. It might have felt that I was invalidating your view with another one. I am very grateful that you showed this alien self theory as i didn't know it and it has made lots of sense to me.

Both theories appear to be very similar and only few differences between them. I am the one being too picky and looking for details in things.

Please hold on to what you had few minutes ago because I don't know what is right and what is wrong.

Your children are not fked up and you are not fked up. Oh walker. Sorry!!!

[Eagleheart]

(((Walker)))

You are who you are,at this moment in time & that is good enough.

Sometimes, too much information can make us feel like we're drowning & panic sets in % all too soon,we feel we have lost hold of who we fundamentally are.

This is when it is time to withdraw a bit,re-attach ourselves to the pieces of us that we were finding. We all need head space,especially when new & potentially helpful discoveries come to light.

Love & light to you. You're doing great. X

[Kara.]

I've been on a journey since I read about the alien self. So much has made sense to me. I have also read that both the alien and false self are similar concepts.

I have also been trying to find out how can one work to minimize its effects. After a long day feeling scared I now feel hope. For the first time I was able to think that the self hatred, the shame, the emptiness, the rage that I feel annihilate any good feelings can actually be... not me. So to speak. Me but not me. I don't know if I know how to express myself.

Thank you for sharing walker.

[Carthraziel]

Thank you for this post. I am too tired to make a useful response right now but thank you for posting this, it helps.