Don't know what to think

[burning wing]

Hello everyone! I'm here again not knowing what to do or even what to think. I have issues with my therapist. He is currently trying to teach me validation of others, and I get it, he's trying to help. I have been reading some stuff on validation and trying to apply it to my life and the people I interact with, and I feel like I'm sort of getting better at this than I used to be, but still not as good as some other people. But the thing is, my therapist and me, we sort of have different views on life. The situations when I think feelings of others should be validated and taken into account, and ways in which they should be taken into account, are different than those my therapist thinks should be. Here are some examples of such disagreements:

1) The situation when you meet someone you know just a little bit in the bus or on the train, and this person doesn't feel like talking to you much. I said I would put on my headphones and listen to the music instead, but my therapist said that in his opinion that would be impolite and it is better to just sit and watch out the window.
2) The situation we argued a lot about, this is the one I think he really doesn't like. I've always been a smart kid, and when I was at school, I used to sometimes correct teachers if they made mistakes. I had this physics teacher, and I solved problems faster than him, and he asked me not to visit his classes because of it (which I was happy about, since I knew everything already). Now I'm at university, and teachers here, of course, know their subjects best and I never argue with them. But I work a lot during the seminars and say much and get good grades. My therapist thinks that I shouldn't be so eager to express my knowledge on the questions, because it might hurt other people, as if I was trying to show I was better than them. Well, therapists know people's intentions sometimes better than them, but to me it seems like I just like studying a lot, I prepare for the classes and I always have something to say. I enjoy taking part in the discussions. Honestly, I don't pursue grades and I also often skip classes. It's just I feel like I have something to say and I can't keep it to myself, because I know this is important for the subject.
But my therapist thinks that I am not being considerate enough of the feelings of others in this situation, and because of it my groupmates may not like me much. But I don't want my groupmates to like me, I don't care. I have friends and I feel satisfied with what I have. And my groupmates don't hate me (most of them).
These lessons and this whole university stuff is really important to me, it's like the best thing in my life and if I didn't have it, I don't know what I would do. And my therapist told me that I'm being invalidating to others in this, even though I think I'm not, and even if it is a little bit invalidating, there is still nothing so wrong with it, it's not like I say some impolite or nasty things, or lash out at someone - I just know a lot and I express what I know on subjects, and since I study law, it's mostly law. I'm not even the only one, there are a few of us who does the same in my study group.

But despite my hard attempts to keep a clear mind and tell myself that my therapist and me are just two different people, and that he simply sees this another way, his words got to me, and now I feel like I am very bad and cruel towards people, even though I don't know what I did and honestly logically I don't believe this is bad, but since my therapist said this was, I can't make myself calm down. I don't want to talk to him about it anymore, because we argued on this question and it sort of triggers me and the last thing in the world I want is to hurt my therapist. I already said something I didn't like to him about it, because this is very important to me and I can't give it up. But I still need to talk to someone whom I will not fry and eat right away.
I just feel like I'm sooo cruel and sooo bad and hurting people even though the people themselves who are supposed to be hurt don't seem to be. But my therapist thinks they are, and this just makes me feel very sad. He seemed upset that I had a different opinion about it, because maybe this whole thing is really impolite, but then, why do I have to be polite in this, I just don't know why, what is it that is worth the effort. This is nothing wrong. But now I feel like this is nothing wrong and my therapist thinks this is, and this just means I'm awful because I don't even see that it is wrong

I know that since I'm borderline, some of my behavior may be invalidating, but also I know that I'm not all borderline and there are some parts of my personality that are just natural, maybe not likable, but natural. I don't want to lose the real me while trying to find her I don't know how to distinguish it Maybe some of you have dealt with similar issues... Please share if you have.

[Kara.]

Well, I don't know if my experience is related to yours at all but here it goes. I do find myself at times talking a lot about my knowledge and I do this when I feel defective and vulnerable inside, so I need to aggrandize myself to compensate for the raw feelings. Sometimes I feel great and I still do it, but I think that this comes from a part of me that has developed as a reaction against maltreatment and humiliation. I do it even though I don't feel vulnerable. When I feel the most... how to say... balanced maybe. Partly vulnerable and partly strong, then I don't feel the need to show off my knowledge even though I may want to speak, I think that actually I do not need to and it is not very important for the group. It is interesting to think of group dynamics and the roles that people take in groups and how the group functions according to its members. Some people may find it hard to express themselves, be insecure, or find it hard to find the space to speak when others are very confident. Sometimes these people may need help to talk more and it helps if the ones who talk a lot give them space to do so. But it might be that the talkers are also fulfilling a role for the group and speaking for the others who may feel comfortable and even relieved that they don't have to try to be visible and can remain invisible. Uni is not group therapy but you may want to reflect on what is happening to you and in the group and whether it is worth to give more thought to it or not.

Your point 1, I would do exactly the same as you, especially because it's so easy to feel rejected and also, because the other person would certainly be on their phone or headphones anyway not worrying at all with me. 

May I ask you, what happens to you when you validate someone's feelings and when you think of others before you?

 

[burning wing]

Kara, thanks for your response. Your experience is very interesting, and I've never been to group therapy, so I have never come across learning about such things. Although I think my situation is a little bit different, because this is a study group, not a therapeutic one, and we don't talk about feelings. Talking about feelings in group must be extremely hard.
When I talk about my knowledge in the classroom, I become very focused on the problem in question. I forget the painful feelings and feel only interest. When I talk in a study group, what others think of me becomes my last concern, and sometimes when I have nothing to say, I don't. But mostly I have something and I just feel like it's not good to stay silent.

Considering group dinamics, most of my groupmates aren't shy, but also they aren't interested in studies. They do stuff on their cell phones or laptops chatting. We have just a few students who are really excited about what's going on in the classroom. I have been studying here for two years already, and only once a guy from my group seemed angry about me answering the questions one day, and that guy can very well stand up for himself and he also is a talker.
Honestly, I'm not a good 'validator', so to speak I say that I learned a lot, because I compare what I am now with what I used to be, and I used to be a mess. Until I found out about this whole thing, I could believe someone didn't want to see me again if they were just 10 minutes late, and if they told me they got stuck in car traffic, for example, I would only pretend to believe so that not to hurt them. But deep inside I had always been on edge that it was all about me, and everyone looking at me was definitely because they were up to something, and it has to do with the fact that they hate me. Once I was sitting in the kitchen in my dorm with another girl for 20 minutes, and she was texting on the phone and I was eating. Then I remember how I caught myself thinking that all the time she was texting, she was thinking how much she hated me and wanted me out of there, and then I realised how weird my thinking was. But now I learned a lot and I almost never get paranoid over other people's glances, gestures or even accusations, or them being late, or something like that. It has become natural to me that they have their own stuff to do, and their world isn't spinning all around me, and it should not be. I learned to let go whenever others tell me they can't spend time with me for some reasons, and I stopped thinking it was because I was bad. I tried to put myself in other people's shoes and see how they might be feeling, trying to understand their actions and if those were taken in 'good faith', even though I got hurt.
But I'm nowhere near some of the healthy people are. And honestly, I don't feel like I want to be. Maybe I'm really not that kind, or maybe I'm borderline and that explains everything, or... I don't know. Honestly, I try not to put others interests before my own. It seems to me that's not what validation is about. To me, validation is accepting and acknowledging others' feelings, and whatever action you take, it's not validation, it's an action taken according to that knowledge. That knowledge may sometimes be ignored, like when you know it's raining outside but you still go out, and this is the case I feel with my study group.
To me, validation is learning to stay calm during a conflict and listening carefully to the object of others' complaints, not thinking 'that is all because they hate me' and not losing temper. But I don't associate validation with sacrifice.
Usually I validate others to understand their behavior and to establish what exactly it has to do with me. Maybe I just overlook some of their needs, and that's what their complaint was about, not me. It's something like that. But most of the time I put my interests first. I use validation also as a tool for keeping my interests, because keeping good relationships here in the dorm is in my interest. I don't know, I just don't feel this 'oh I want to sacrifice my interests' thing, and maybe this is what my therapist doesn't like. I'm concerned because I'm not so sure it's BPD. I feel like it's natural to me. If others express a complaint, I usually respect their interests in order to keep peace and so that they would respect mine, too.
Sometimes I put others' interests before mine, but that happens only with those who are closest to me. I guess I put the interests of my sisters before mine, if it's not too important for me to let it go, but I do that because I want to. I can only sacrifice something if I deep inside want someone to be happy, and that can happen only to veeery few people in the world and not all the time.
I try to think at the same time of others and of me, putting me first, seeing what it is that I want from others, and acting in the way to get it. I don't think the way 'this is what others want, I need to do it so that they would feel alright'. Sometimes I feel selfish or guilty, like today, but I am fighting those feelings, because somehow I believe this is what it should be, at least for me.

I guess I'm the type of person who can go outside when it's raining, and take the flowers because they only bloom during the rain. Is that a BPD thing, or is that okay? I wish I knew.

And what about you, what happens when you try validation, what do you feel?

[Kara.]

It's very interesting. Let me just say that I was not really speaking about group therapy but making an analogy with group therapy as the dynamics of groups can be transferred to any group situation. But I think that we may be speaking about different experiences or at least different motivations. 

I see validation differently. I think validation is about knowing and affirming other people's feelings and intentions and to really do that one needs to think of the other and even sometimes enjoy put the other first and this won't feel as if one is self-sacrificing. Have you asked your T if he also thinks that part of it may not be bpd and something else? 

I am very much like you were, feeling paranoid and feeling that things happen because of me and that i am bad. I'm impressed with your progress. How did you learn that? CBT?

I can feel very rewarded when I use validation but also threatened that by validating the other i am invalidating myself. This makes me feel that I am put in a position of inferiority and vulnerability, which I hate. I find it hard to be genuine with my feelings of validation because of this and end up hating people very often. On a good day I can have mutual exchanges that are very rewarding. I think most people use validation naturally and do it because they actually are bonded emotionally at least as people. I am learning to put my interest first, which is very very difficult but getting better at it. Slowly slowly. 

Maybe you are so scared of also losing that sense of power and control that you may feel when you don't feel guilty and selfish? These feelings bring the other into the equation, onto the same level as you. These feelings are hard to feel as they may make us feel very vulnerable and dependent on the other. Just thinking aloud. Hope to not make you feel more worried. 

Hugs.  

 

[burning wing]

I think your way of understanding validation means you are a very kind person and truly care about others. Being able to enjoy doing something for others, sacrificing your interests and not feeling as if it is a self-sacrifice - that is very loving and caring. You have this sort of inner kindness that makes a very good person, I believe. If you can enjoy doing things for others, sacrificing your interests, that is a high level of love.

We had a conversation about this with my therapist, and this is the topic I'm afraid to bring up with him, because he sort of tries to make me see it as BPD, and I'm afraid I may say something I would't want to. Somehow this hurts me a lot, I don't know why.

Honestly, to me, it seems like I'm just not that type of person. I'm more selfish, but in a normal way. Usually I think 'what it is I want'. To me, to be doing somethig for others and not feeling like this is a self-secrifice, this person needs to be really close to me, so that I would see happiness of that person as a part of my own happiness.

I learned that mostly through doing the research on BPD, asking people openly sometimes 'I did that and I think you hate me, do you hate me?' I tried to compare what I think with what is. And, of course, my therapist helped me a lot, too.

I can relate to your feeling that when you are validating the other, you are invalidating yourself. I get this feeling as well, and this is also the reason why I don't usually put others before myself. I think maybe trying to validate yourself and the other at the same time, finding some sort of a 'middle path', where both your interests and the interests of the other are satisfied, can help. I can also relate to the feeling of being put in the position of inferiority and vulnerability. This is a difficult issue, but I'm not so sure this is all BPD.

It's just I get this impression that this BPD thing is too widely interpreted... I remember reading an article on BPD on a psychological web-site, and there was this phrase 'whatever you say about BPD, the opposite is also true'. Also there was an example of the author's friend who divorced his BPD wife and she lied in court, and then he started thinking and saying to everyone that all borderlines lie in court. It's a normal thing that when someone is a member of a different social group, others see him as having some qualities they believe this whole social group has. It's some sort of protection against the unknown. Normal people often can't, or they think they can't, understand why we do what we do, and then they link to BPD some of our non-borderline qualities, and then we ourselves start thinking that many of our feelings, thoughts and beliefs are due to BPD, and then we invalidate ourselves.

It's just that maybe, when I do something for the other and start feeling inferior or vulnerable, maybe deep inside I don't want to do this... Maybe deep inside I believe that this time is not a good time for doing this thing, and that's where I get these feelings from... So, maybe instead of saying 'that's control issues' I need to think deeper and try to see what is behind this. Or maybe these are control issues. With this whole BPD thing, we are sooo often in danger of invalidating ourselves.

Ohh you are so right! I need to look at my situation this way as well. Thank you a lot, I agree with you, this may be exactly what I am trying to do and why I am fighting these feelings.

And also I'm afraid to lose my true self in this BPD teatment thing... like I ever had it.

You have a nice profile pic, I love that anime a lot.

[Kara.]

Thanks. I just change profile picture this week. I like Ghibli studios' animations. 

I think that the sense of inferiority/vulnerability that get when i validate others may be more related, in my case, to narcissism. I think that I have both bpd and npd. I thought that I was also autistic because of a part of me that is (or was???) completely shut off from people. But my T thinks that I don't have autism. But narcissism is certainly a given :-( It's hard because I'm always protecting from feeling vulnerable and inferior by playing superior. Then I feel horrible.

I think that there is something about letting go of labels and just be the best we can be, though it also helped me to know about both bpd and npd. I think that engaging with the heart is hard but is well worth it. The rational mind tends to control things and misses out the more subtle exchanges and communication between people that allows for feelings of trust and security instead of power struggles.

Maybe it would be worth discussing with your T what you think your true self is. I have the impression that you may have different opinions about it? 

Hugs! 

 

[burning wing]

Me too, I've seen many of them. It's sad that Hayao Miyazaki decided to stop creating anime, but what he has already done is enough to be re-watched a thousand times. What are your most favorite?

I would never think you were npd, really... Or maybe I just don't know what narcissism is. I think I've just never met a real npd and my idea of them isn't clear. It's just that from the posts I've read, I've never gotten an impression you were trying to play superior. It seems like you're only trying to help or get help, or expressing your opinion. Well, I'm sorry, I really don't know much about this disorder, but for what it's worth, to me, you don't look like one, even if you are one.

Yeah, knowing about bpd helped me a lot, too. Yet I'm sort of trying to draw the line between the damage bpd is really doing to me and the damage I can do to myself because of thinking it's bpd.
I so much agree with you, the power struggles aren't a good thing, and still I so often end up engaging in them Really, my therapist and me, we do have different opinions on this topic. But I think you told me just what I needed to hear.  It's true, these are the things I should, honestly, be telling to the T and not here, but it's so much easier here... I often find it hard to be sincere with my T, partly because I'm afraid of saying something unpleasant, partly because he often disagrees with me and I can't find the courage to engage in a discussion and not in an argument. It's my fault. You're right, I should talk to him. But I'm not sure if I can. Yet I will keep in mind your advice. Thanks a lot!

[Kara.]

I don't know what kind of therapy you are doing but many kinds do rely a lot on the exploration of the relationship between therapist and patient. It is really important that one speaks about what is difficult in the relationship as well. 

Narcissism can take different forms. The typical confident and self centered person is one form, but on the other end of the line there are the ones whose self confidence is openly very low. Both rely on idealized image of self that is not real. The former behave as if they were that already and the latter as if the were so far from ever being that they imagine they should be. Though they are fine as they are they hate themselves as they want to be more and better. I identify with the latter. As a protection I can get fierce and grandiose like the confident narcissist. The confident narcissist feels very fragile and vulnerable inside therefore acts as if s/he didn't. But there are the ones who have been highly praised and made believe that they were best than anyone else when they were little and these feel vulnerable when they are confronted with their limitations.

Yes, Miyazaki is great and I too wish he never died and continued working. But since we can't stop time, I have started watching other Ghibli animators to give the a chance and it's very worthwhile. My favourtites by Miyazaki might be Spirited away, then maybe Princess Mononoke... I love Totoro and that is such a different animation from the others so I don't really compare it with them. Totoro is my little me's favourite! I watched others and also liked Howl's Moving Castle.  I need to watch some still but that is great as I will still be surprised :-)

Burning wing, I wish I was more like you. More capable of feeling that I could take care of my interests first. I feel great guilt at times when I do that. Complicated stuff. I think that there is place for a bit of everything. 

Be well. Will be away for some days. 

 

[burning wing]

I understand that, but somehow I find it very hard to talk about relationships. You're right, there is only one way to find out what is going on and that way is to talk.

Oh, I'm so sorry you have to go through two disorders... I can barely handle one. You're very brave to keep fighting both of them. I wish you all the luck, and the first step to progress is understanding, which you already have.

Miyazaki didn't die, if I'm not mistaken... He announced the end of his career and that he decided to rest and stop working on anime. He has a son who also does anime, his name is Goro Miyazaki and he created 'Tales from Earthsea'. I like this movie as well, although many MIyazaki fans don't like it. I like the ones you listed as well. Yeah, Totoro is a nice anime. I like that flying bus that looks like a cat =)

And I wish I was more like you, able to enjoy taking care of the others. Maybe that's who you are, a caring type of person. I heard that if one keeps acting opposite to his emotion, then it'll eventually change. Maybe you can try taking care of yourself more often depite the guilt. Guilt is a difficult feeling to cope with. I am also often flooded by it. Guilt is usually the one that tells us we're bad

[Kara.]

:-)  You are kind. Thank you. I am trying to be more caring towards me but especially to ask for help and let myself be supported. 

I meant, I wish that Miyazaki never ever died so that he could keep on making animations. I also liked 'Tales from Earthsea'. I liked it a lot actually and was surprised that it didn't have many good reviews. I understood then that the reviewers thought that the adaptation of the books was not a good one. It seemed that there was a whole faithful fans of these books who were not happy with the animation. If I remember correctly. 

I'm sorry that you feel so much guilt. It's a very difficult feeling. My most difficult feeling is shame. Shame paralyses me completely. 

[burning wing]

Oh yeah, I also wish that. Miyazaki could have done so much more. Maybe he decided to spend more time with his family. 'Tales from Earthsea' covers the question of life and death, and the sense of life, and these questions are often very important for the people on this forum, for me, and maybe for you, too. But there are some who doesn't care as much, usually those are healthy people who don't face the life they never wanted or something like that. Maybe they don't see this anime as meaningful. I liked that concept ther in particular.

I guess all intense negative feelings are difficult. I'm sorry you have to deal with shame. How do you cope with it, when it gets bad?
 

[Kara.]

I don't cope! :-)  I really don't. What happens is that I become aggressive and violent in my thoughts and feelings. I don't act out and know that all of it is a reaction to profound vulnerability and sense of defectiveness. I also break contact with people and start hating/envying them. It's a real nightmare. I'm trying to find healthy ways of coping. Have to fight it. I really have to. 

Tales from Earthsea. Yes, I see how you thought of life and death. I was attracted to the murderous feelings and how the boy suffered due to having them. I also liked how the father/son relationship and how the boy created a relationship with another man as if that relationship was reparative of his destructive past actions. 

 

 

 

[burning wing]

Being agressive in one's thoughts and feelings isn't equal to being violent in reality, I believe...  It's great that you don't act out and those who made you angry don't suffer so much from it. I wish you luck in dealing with this difficult feeling. I don't know much about feelings, I wish I could help.

I see, you found this idea in 'Tales from Earthsea' most important. It is a philosophical anime just like others in this line, and it brings up many difficult questions. I wonder why Goro chose this particular book for his anime.
 

 

[Kara.]

You know that I asked myself the same question? Did Goro have these feelings for his dad, Miyazaki? I dont know of other animation that he has made. It can be hard to want to be recognized when one's own dad is so good. How can one conquer their own place in the world? 

I'm being helped with my feelings. It will be ok, I believe. Today i believe.

How has it been with your T?